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The concept of the Trinity has always been confusing to me because the Bible describes the activities of Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit as though they are individual entities and yet we're told that they're actually a part of one being. If this is the case I can't understand why Jesus would ever say a prayer because it would seem as though he would be talking to himself in a sense. A prayer by it's very definition is supposed to be an individual who is speaking directly to God. A conversation is taking place which requires two participants, one who is speaking and one who is listening. Can anyone explain why Jesus would ever need to engage in a prayer which is supposed to be a communication with God if he actually is God in human form? In other words, who exactly is he praying to?
The concept of the Trinity has always been confusing to me because the Bible describes the activities of Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit as though they are individual entities and yet we're told that they're actually a part of one being. If this is the case I can't understand why Jesus would ever say a prayer because it would seem as though he would be talking to himself in a sense. A prayer by it's very definition is supposed to be an individual who is speaking directly to God. A conversation is taking place which requires two participants, one who is speaking and one who is listening. Can anyone explain why Jesus would ever need to engage in a prayer which is supposed to be a communication with God if he actually is God in human form? In other words, who exactly is he praying to?
The standard Christian explanation is extremely fuzzy at best and when that fails, the "it's a mystery" car is pulled.
I suggest reading the thread below to find out WHY the doctrine of the Trinity became a necessity.
There's a lot of fuzziness about this but what is clear to me from a lot of study of the gospels and the epistles is that it is not at all clear that Jesus is really in control of his destiny as a god incarnate would be expected to be.
To start with Paul, while Jesus is to be accepted as Lord, he is still 'just' messiah and his salvation is down to his obedience to God (as opposed to Adam's disobedience) rather than being God incarnate so, of course, he goes back to heaven.
When we look at the baptism where the 'spirit' descended on him, Jesus was driven/sent in Mark, led in Matthew and Luke into the desert. John does not mention that, so the fact is debatable, but the point here is the idea of Jesus as what I call a 'meat puppet' animated by the Shekinah - the spirit of God - and not really in control.
We recall the business of the touching of the hem of the robe. Because of the woman's Faith, the healing power went out of Jesus when he was unaware of it. That's hardly being in control.
Even John, who sees Jesus as more godlike that the others, still sees Jesus as a man animated by the Holy Spirit. Sure, when you see Jesu you are seeing God and Jesus bpthe before and after resurrection, is worthy of being worshipped, but even here, the meat -envelope can do nothing of itself, but only because it is inhabited by 'The father'.
We can see the various last words on the cross from Matthew and Mark's 'why have you forsaken me/given me up/sacrificed me?' - read it how you like, it adds up to the same - through Luke's hopeful resignation to John's triumphal transformation of a horrible and degrading execution into rite for the transmutation of base flesh into spiritual gold.
Thus the praying in the garden falls into place. Admittedly between two stools (either option is crap, after all) that Jesus as God's chosen would rather like to be let off what he knows is coming but, Just as you say, Boss, to God incarnate asking himself for some other way out and saying no to himself. The way it looks to me is that this makes it seems as though the God incarnate idea must be a later development and the messiah controlled by God is what the Gospel - writers were stuck with as they were with the crucifixion (and the temple fracas, too, for that matter) and it didn't really fit with the later idea, not yet fully integrated, even in John, that Jesus wasn't a man inhabited by God (much less just guided by God) but was actual God in the appearance of a man.
Remembering the lack of evidence in Paul for any belief on his part that Jesus was actually God in person, we can see yet another thread of evidence for the gradual transformation of a Gentilized messiah through a god -inhabited messsiah to the god -as-man dogma decided upon by Constantine and marketed as an article of faith ever after.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-27-2009 at 07:13 AM..
There's a lot of fuzziness about this but what is clear to me from a lot of study of the gospels and the epistles is that it is not at all clear that Jesus is really in control of his destiny as a god incarnate would be expected to be.
To start with Paul, while Jesus is to be accepted as Lord, he is still 'just' messiah and his salvation is down to his obedience to God (as opposed to Adam's disobedience) rather than being God incarnate so, of course, he goes back to heaven.
When we look at the baptism where the 'spirit' descended on him, Jesus was driven/sent in Mark, led in Matthew and Luke into the desert. John does not mention that, so the fact is debatable, but the point here is the idea of Jesus as what I call a 'meat puppet' animated by the Shekinah - the spirit of God - and not really in control.
We recall the business of the touching of the hem of the robe. Because of the woman's Faith, the healing power went out of Jesus when he was unaware of it. That's hardly being in control.
Even John, who sees Jesus as more godlike that the others, still sees Jesus as a man animated by the Holy Spirit. Sure, when you see Jesu you are seeing God and Jesus bpthe before and after resurrection, is worthy of being worshipped, but even here, the meat -envelope can do nothing of itself, but only because it is inhabited by 'The father'.
We can see the various last words on the cross from Matthew and Mark's 'why have you forsaken me/given me up/sacrificed me?' - read it how you like, it adds up to the same - through Luke's hopeful resignation to John's triumphal transformation of a horrible and degrading execution into rite for the transmutation of base flesh into spiritual gold.
Thus the praying in the garden falls into place. Admittedly between two stools (either option is crap, after all) that Jesus as God's chosen would rather like to be let off what he knows is coming but, Just as you say, Boss, to God incarnate asking himself for some other way out and saying no to himself. The way it looks to me is that this makes it seems as though the God incarnate idea must be a later development and the messiah controlled by God is what the Gospel - writers were stuck with as they were with the crucifixion (and the temple fracas, too, for that matter) and it didn't really fit with the later idea, not yet fully integrated, even in John, that Jesus wasn't a man inhabited by God (much less just guided by God) but was actual God in the appearance of a man.
Remembering the lack of evidence in Paul for any belief on his part that Jesus was actually God in person, we can see yet another thread of evidence for the gradual transformation of a Gentilized messiah through a god -inhabited messsiah to the god -as-man dogma decided upon by Constantine and marketed as an article of faith ever after.
I read though that whole post and I still don’t know if your saying Jesus is god or not…?
Yes
No
I don't know
The concept of the Trinity has always been confusing to me because the Bible describes the activities of Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit as though they are individual entities and yet we're told that they're actually a part of one being. If this is the case I can't understand why Jesus would ever say a prayer because it would seem as though he would be talking to himself in a sense. A prayer by it's very definition is supposed to be an individual who is speaking directly to God. A conversation is taking place which requires two participants, one who is speaking and one who is listening. Can anyone explain why Jesus would ever need to engage in a prayer which is supposed to be a communication with God if he actually is God in human form? In other words, who exactly is he praying to?
The concept of the Trinity is a myth. God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are not all one in the same.
God is our Heavenly Father.
The Holy Spirit is a part of God's spirit, also called His messenger, that brings to us His Divine Love when we seek for it with soul longings.
Jesus' soul was created in such a way that it would have the soul longings to obtain this Divine Love. And at some point, he became a divine man... and this means he is at-one with God, in his attributes of love, bliss, peace, forebearance, tolerance, patience, etc.
Adam and Eve were given the opportunity to seek for and obtain this Divine Love, but they rejected it, and so the privilege to receive it was removed from mankind, until the birth of Jesus.
Believing in the Trinity as being one in the same is a false belief.
Common sense tells you that Jesus always refers in the Bible to my Father. So, therefore, he is talking about his Father, who is also our Father. And, if it is our desire to do so, we may also become divine while we are alive on this planet exactly the same way Jesus did it. If we choose not to follow the same path here, there is an opportunity to do it in the next world. But keep in mind, at some point, this privilege will be withdrawn, just as it was with Adam and Eve.
I read though that whole post and I still don’t know if your saying Jesus is god or not…?
Yes
No
I don't know
Pre. p. s.. Thanks for reading the post anyway. I do tend to ramble on a bit...
It isn't about what I think or not, but it's about what the Bible-writers thought in particular reference to the thread title - his praying to himself in Gethsemane.
My post was intended to use that and other bits of gospel to show that the evangelists were conceptually moving from not God (just a God - manipulated Messiah) to something that was very like God but not the utter integration of Jesus and God codified by Constantine.
The implication is, of course, that they were recreating God to suit their own views.
As to my own view, I'm sure Jesus, if he ever existed, was not God and he would have been appalled at the suggestion that he was.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-27-2009 at 08:38 AM..
Reason: pre P.s thanks
Thank you. Then you see indications in the gospels that do not justify the trinitarian identification of Jesus (whether or not Son of God - whatever one takes that to mean) with God?
Thank you. Then you see indications in the gospels that do not justify the trinitarian identification of Jesus (whether or not Son of God - whatever one takes that to mean) with God?
The problem with the Bible gospels is that they were re-written many times throughout the centuries by men, who didn't have a completely accurate account of who and what was the man, Jesus the Messiah. So what is written is their speculation and, unfortunately, it contains many errors and these errors are all a part and parcel of the Christian dogma, hence, the Trinity, as well as the false doctrine that Jesus died on the cross to save our sins.
All men and women may achieve a higher level of spiritual perfection, or divinity, that Jesus sought and received, if it is their desire to do so.
Last edited by SoCalAngel2009; 11-27-2009 at 11:30 AM..
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