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Old 04-16-2010, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,425 posts, read 12,723,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
What is time?
My point is, everything has a creator. Our creator would seemingly have to have a creator also, and on & on. However, if our creator exists in a different dimension, maybe not.
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Old 04-16-2010, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Boise
2,008 posts, read 3,320,459 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
My point is, everything has a creator. Our creator would seemingly have to have a creator also, and on & on. However, if our creator exists in a different dimension, maybe not.
I'm sure you saw this coming from a mile away, but I have to ask. What about the creator? Is there a creator of that creator and another creator of that creator? Why does everything have to have a creator?
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:22 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 3,496,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
My point is, everything has a creator. Our creator would seemingly have to have a creator also, and on & on. However, if our creator exists in a different dimension, maybe not.
Although I can and normally would argue against the idea, going from "deistic creator" to "Jesus is the Son of God" is a logical leap across the Mariner Valley.
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Old 04-16-2010, 09:57 PM
 
63,566 posts, read 39,855,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
I'm sure you saw this coming from a mile away, but I have to ask. What about the creator? Is there a creator of that creator and another creator of that creator? Why does everything have to have a creator?
I tire of this BS speculative "Turtles all the way down." The ONLY things we are required to account for is what we know EXISTS irrefutably. So the Creator issue stops once we acknowledge the existence of one for "everything that exists." Whether or not that Creator does or doesn't have one is beyond the data we have. We only know about "everything that exists" and we only need to acknowledge a Creator for that.
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Old 04-16-2010, 10:34 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 3,496,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I tire of this BS speculative "Turtles all the way down." The ONLY things we are required to account for is what we know EXISTS irrefutably. So the Creator issue stops once we acknowledge the existence of one for "everything that exists." Whether or not that Creator does or doesn't have one is beyond the data we have. We only know about "everything that exists" and we only need to acknowledge a Creator for that.
Jesus Christ.

It's okay that your God doesn't have a creator for its existence, and that "I don't know" is a sufficient answer for that, but ****-it-all if the atheists claim that our existence doesn't require a creator behind it.

Hypocrisy!
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Old 04-16-2010, 11:31 PM
 
63,566 posts, read 39,855,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
Jesus Christ.
Now that's progress. "There's help in them thar hills" for your troubled soul.
Quote:
It's okay that your God doesn't have a creator for its existence, and that "I don't know" is a sufficient answer for that, but ****-it-all if the atheists claim that our existence doesn't require a creator behind it.
The irrefutable existence of "created" things mandates the existence of a Creator. We have no reason to presume that a Creator needs one . . . you propose none for your "Nature" creator . . . but you do have to acknowledge its existence.
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Old 04-17-2010, 12:17 AM
 
3,614 posts, read 3,496,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Now that's progress. "There's help in them thar hills" for your troubled soul.
Move your religious pandering elsewhere.

Quote:
The irrefutable existence of "created" things mandates the existence of a Creator.
You're assuming creation.

Quote:
We have no reason to presume that a Creator needs one . . . you propose none for your "Nature" creator . . . but you do have to acknowledge its existence.
Existence is easy to recognize and measure--simply by stating that existence is a creation do you beg the question of a creator. Your tautology will get you no where. I reject your claims that matter and energy was "created."
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Old 04-17-2010, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Boise
2,008 posts, read 3,320,459 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The irrefutable existence of "created" things mandates the existence of a Creator. We have no reason to presume that a Creator needs one . . . you propose none for your "Nature" creator . . . but you do have to acknowledge its existence.
The only irrefutable part is that these things exist, whether or not they were created is the speculative part. Mostly now the issue is nailing down what we mean by created. Created for reason or purpose, or created by accident perhaps unknown to the creator.

Even if we assume that there is a creator, that's as far as it can go - there might be a creator. Even so it still doesn't validate the claim that the gods we have read about are real. Since this is the realm of possibilities and what could be, it also could be that this creator is nothing like we feel it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I tire of this BS speculative "Turtles all the way down." The ONLY things we are required to account for is what we know EXISTS irrefutably. So the Creator issue stops once we acknowledge the existence of one for "everything that exists." Whether or not that Creator does or doesn't have one is beyond the data we have. We only know about "everything that exists" and we only need to acknowledge a Creator for that.
The whole argument about the existence of god hinges on what exists outside our tangible realm of existence. One the one hand you expect us to believe that there is a god in existence out there somewhere, on the other hand we aren't supposed to believe that there is anything past that? We're talking about the metaphysical plane here, it would be like going to the Mediterranean and only going to one restaurant and going home. Why stop there, we're already thinking in the realm of near infinite possibilities, why assume only one of those possibilities are a legitimate explanation?
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Old 04-17-2010, 09:28 PM
 
63,566 posts, read 39,855,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
Move your religious pandering elsewhere.
You called on His name . . . not me.
Quote:
You're assuming creation.
No . . I am acknowledging it.
Quote:
Existence is easy to recognize and measure--simply by stating that existence is a creation do you beg the question of a creator. Your tautology will get you no where. I reject your claims that matter and energy was "created."
Reject whatever you like . . . the reality is WE and all life were created from non-life (your matter and energy). That means I have evidence of creation providing a plausible reason to expect that a Creator is behind everything that exists. You have NOTHING on which to deny it.
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Old 04-17-2010, 09:41 PM
 
63,566 posts, read 39,855,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
The only irrefutable part is that these things exist, whether or not they were created is the speculative part. Mostly now the issue is nailing down what we mean by created. Created for reason or purpose, or created by accident perhaps unknown to the creator.
When something does NOT exist . . . like life . . . and then it exists . . . THAT is creation.
Quote:
Even if we assume that there is a creator, that's as far as it can go - there might be a creator. Even so it still doesn't validate the claim that the gods we have read about are real. Since this is the realm of possibilities and what could be, it also could be that this creator is nothing like we feel it is.
All speculation about purpose and attributes of this Creator beyond what we can veify by science remain disputable. There are myriad versions. None of that diversity of opinion or belief has any impact on the irrefutable EXISTENCE of a Creator (God). You are free to have your version (indifferent, mindless, purposeless, unintelligent,etc. or whatever) of God . . . but the EXISTENCE is not disputable.
Quote:
The whole argument about the existence of god hinges on what exists outside our tangible realm of existence.
No it does NOT. There is nothing but what we have as evidence of our reality . It is God and God is it.
Quote:
One the one hand you expect us to believe that there is a god in existence out there somewhere, on the other hand we aren't supposed to believe that there is anything past that? We're talking about the metaphysical plane here, it would be like going to the Mediterranean and only going to one restaurant and going home. Why stop there, we're already thinking in the realm of near infinite possibilities, why assume only one of those possibilities are a legitimate explanation?
Sorry . . . there is only what EXISTS to explain . . whatever else MAY exist is pure speculation and pointless.
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