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Old 05-19-2007, 07:03 PM
 
Location: San Gabriel Valley, CA
11,807 posts, read 12,164,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FL_TN_Nana View Post
Luke is not identified as an apostle and he was a contemporary of Paul's, accompanying him on some missionary journeys. It is also believed that Luke is the author of The Acts of the Apostles.
Right...I saw that and I think corrected it to disciple...Anyway, he didn't hear anything Jesus said, in this case. He became Christian and then followed Paul. Is that right?

As far as a comment made above about how the "Thomas" book might have been invalidated partially because no original exists, only copies--don't only copies also exist of MMLandJ?
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Old 05-19-2007, 07:05 PM
 
Location: San Gabriel Valley, CA
11,807 posts, read 12,164,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopOnPop View Post
(oops cross posting with above ---)


On the other hand, there are some strange commonalities. For example, Matthew and Luke most certainly used Mark as a resource in their writings. However, there is also this whole hypothetical "Gospel of Q" idea out there that has some very strong theological support, at least from the more liberal branches of Christianity. There is actually theologians "reconstructing it" from existing Gospels. The idea is that there is another never discovered or discussed gospel that was foundational (at least) to the Gospels of Matthew, Luke and Mark, as well as the Gospel of Thomas. This is based not only on just common ideas shared among all four of them, but, in at least the case of Matthew and Luke there are exact phrases that appear in both that lead many to believe they lifted them from the same unknown gospel. What doe s this all mean, I have no idea, but I thought it was pretty fascinating stuff and worth blathering about in this thread...
I've heard about the Gospel of Q too. That's interesting. I'll be interested to see eventually when they've reconstructed it as far as can be done.
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Old 05-19-2007, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Mill Valley, California
275 posts, read 256,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Right...I saw that and I think corrected it to disciple...Anyway, he didn't hear anything Jesus said, in this case. He became Christian and then followed Paul. Is that right?

As far as a comment made above about how the "Thomas" book might have been invalidated partially because no original exists, only copies--don't only copies also exist of MMLandJ?
Now, yes. However, I do not know if that was the case in the 3rd and 4th centuries at the time of authentication of MMLJ. My guess is they had the real deal in hand back then.
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Old 05-19-2007, 07:30 PM
 
Location: San Gabriel Valley, CA
11,807 posts, read 12,164,940 times
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Okay, so just one more question then...I had never actually thought of this. Back then, how did one authenticate something? I mean how would one be able to verify one handwritten text as an original, and another as a copy?
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Old 05-19-2007, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Mill Valley, California
275 posts, read 256,425 times
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Again, we can only speculate. There aren't records of their methods.
It is clearly one of those cases where people who were well entrenched into Christianity were then asked to authenticate their own dogma. There was a lot of fractionalization of Christianity at the time, so the dominating "branch" was placed in charge of this authentication -- so, you can draw our own conclusions, but I would think they were fairly biased in which books they chose as authentic and which the excluded....

The first Council of Nicaea was in 325 AD, and Mark (the oldest gospel) is estimated to be written 65-75CE and John (the oldest) 90-100CE, so they only had to work with a time frame of 230 years or so.

Think about how we (that is, me and you...and not a well funded CSI unit) might verify the original declaration of Independence as Jefferson's handwriting. We can get documents written by Jefferson that still exist today to which we might compare handwriting. There are numerous reports from other members in the continental congress that verify it was his charge to compose it. Their personal journals discuss the events in a fairly united way, etc. There are people around who can claim familial affilations with him and may be the sources for things like early drafts. It wouldn't be rocket science, nor would have to be all that scientific.

Last edited by HopOnPop; 05-19-2007 at 08:36 PM..
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Old 05-20-2007, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Catskill mountains NY
74 posts, read 154,784 times
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Good Day All,
Any one who is truly interested in expanding the relavance of the Christ in the world my want to pick up a book called "The Gnostic Bible" published by Shambahala. It thoroughly reviews Thomas and shows the related Bible verses. This book is a wealth of information and the extensive commentary makes its reading far more enjoyable. Yes, I said enjoyable!
That said, on page 659 under Jesus, The Sage in Islam, Hammid Muhammad al-Ghazali, a late eleventh century moslim mystic who authored "Revival of the religious sciences" quoted Jesus as saying "Do not offer wisdom to those who are not worthy of it, or you might harm it, and do not withhold it from those who are worthy of it, or you might harm them. Be like a gentle doctor who puts the medicine in the diseased spot. Whoever offers wisdom to those who are not worthy of it is a fool, and whoever withholds it from those who are worthy of it is an evildoer. Wisdom has rights and rightful owners, so give each what is appropriate." (1.30 compare Matthew 9;11 Mark 2:17 Luke 5:31) The Authors of Gnostic have done all the foot work for you with these added foot notes. http://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Bible-...9674608&sr=1-1
Read the reviews! How can you NOT Love this book?
Be Well
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Old 05-24-2007, 04:18 PM
Status: "Books on my mind (and on my sofa, tables, etc.)" (set 11 hours ago)
 
Location: South Bay Native
9,741 posts, read 13,253,698 times
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Default Gospel of Thomas, and other "lost books of the bible" - fact or fiction?

Alright everyone, while I have been lurking around C-D for some time now, this is the first thread I have ever started and I hope that I get some good responses.

I had started doing some online research about the Gospel of Thomas, which I have learned was written in Coptic and found in 1945. Written around 140 if I remember correctly.

In searching, I came across a legitimate looking website claiming that the whole thing, and actually any other "missing" books i.e. Enoch, etc. are all forgeries and deceptions. It stated this as a matter of fact, with really no evidence as to why they are all fakes.

Does anyone have an opinion on this? Should I continue to research this?

Thanks for any insight you can share on this.

Moderator cut: New topic formed for "Dead Sea Scroll" discussion
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Old 05-24-2007, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Anywhere but here!
2,796 posts, read 6,644,021 times
Reputation: 1624
Quote:
Originally Posted by DontH8Me View Post
Alright everyone, while I have been lurking around C-D for some time now, this is the first thread I have ever started and I hope that I get some good responses.

I had started doing some online research about the Gospel of Thomas, which I have learned was written in Coptic and found in 1945. Written around 140 if I remember correctly.

In searching, I came across a legitimate looking website claiming that the whole thing, and actually any other "missing" books i.e. Enoch, etc. are all forgeries and deceptions. It stated this as a matter of fact, with really no evidence as to why they are all fakes.

Does anyone have an opinion on this? Should I continue to research this?

Thanks for any insight you can share on this.
I started a thread a couple of weeks back about the same thing. Here's the link to it if you're intrested.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...=gospel+thomas
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Old 05-24-2007, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Maine
8,155 posts, read 10,585,930 times
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I've read Enoch and Thomas, though I confess I don't know much about their history. It's been so long that I honestly can't remember much of Enoch. The gospel of Thomas was just...weird.

There were lots and lots of books, letters, etc. floating around in the early years of the Church. There were very good reasons why the Church picked which books were canon and which were not. Even some of the works that didn't make the cut were still considered worthy to read, but were not deemed to be "inspired of God."

Have you read the books in the Catholic Bible that the Protestants kicked out? I remember that the first time I read the Book of Tobit, I couldn't believe how funny it was. Parts of it read like a Monty Python sketch.
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Old 05-24-2007, 10:36 PM
 
1,021 posts, read 2,951,929 times
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Exclamation Merging

(Duplicate topics merged)
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