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Old 01-17-2010, 02:24 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,256,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I don't think science is central to the lives of Atheists either, at least not in my life...More important to me are the people in my life....Although I do have a keen interest in science, particularly the natural sciences...I agree that it is just a tool for understanding the universe, but much more than that, when you think of all the progress made in the last century....Because of science we are able to sit at home and converse with people almost anywhere on earth...It is my hope that eventually this will lead to better understanding of various cultures for all of us....Being single I also wouldn't want to give up my microwave
That's a good point. It is also a tool that can be used for making the world a better place. As a Christian, however, I agree with Thomas's statement that it is essentially amoral -- it can be used for both good and evil. Moreover it cannot answer the important questions about man's origin, purpose, and destiny.

In fact I suspect that even some atheists (those who adhere to some kind of moral code) can agree that technology can be used for both good and evil ends.

Wow! Finally a topic on which we can find some agreement.

 
Old 01-17-2010, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 6,998,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
I am a Christian and I don't "despise science."

Did you mean to ask "Why do some Christians despise science?"

That would be a much more credible question.
My apologies. You are right. "Why do some fundamentalist Christians who regularly post their vitriol here despise the results & consequences of scientific examination when it flies in the face of their beliefs?"

A bit hard to fit into the header bar, but you're absolutely right.

But I do think I made my precise point in my OP. Don't you, DS? I'd appreciate your thoughts on my new & improved question.
 
Old 01-17-2010, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Southern California
1,395 posts, read 989,261 times
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There's nothing wrong with science... I'm very grateful for many scientific discoveries and I believe inventions to improve our lives are given to us from the highest source... our Heavenly Father.

But science isn't the end all... it's just one aspect of knowledge and discovery... there is more to investigate... like how our souls may be transformed into a divine essence and with this transformation comes knowledge and wisdom without even opening a book.
 
Old 01-17-2010, 02:38 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,256,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
My apologies. You are right. "Why do some fundamentalist Christians who regularly post their vitriol here despise the results & consequences of scientific examination when it flies in the face of their beliefs?"

A bit hard to fit into the header bar, but you're absolutely right.

But I do think I made my precise point in my OP. Don't you, DS? I'd appreciate your thoughts on my new & improved question.
I still think it's a caricature which shows a lack of genuine good faith, and is not worthy of being taken seriously.

As regards your OP, some of the questions hiding in there--which Thomas has begun to unearth--are interesting ones for sure and worthy of discussion and debate.

When you lard your posts with so much "Christian baiting" language however, is it really any surprise that Christians don't want to engage seriously with you?
 
Old 01-17-2010, 02:44 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,856 posts, read 14,020,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
Interesting ideas Thomas. Is it true that Christians are disproportionately represented in non-scientific careers, and atheists in scientific ones? I've never seen a study to this effect, but as you are a keen researcher I will take your word for it.
On rereading it I realized it could seem to imply that, but that's not quite what I meant.

What I meant is that I think a theistic home is not likely to encourage being a scientist any more than it would other "prestige" occupations. (Nurse, teacher, firefighter, etc) I think an atheist home is more likely to place scientist very high among prestige occupations, but I did not mean that an atheist home automatically will do so.

There is some evidence that people going into science are more likely to be atheist to start. Also when you consider the "effort taken versus income" science is, for most people, not the most profitable field of study. Hence it's often something you really have to be passionate about and I think religious people like us are less likely than atheists to have that kind of passion for it. Pretty much every atheist I've ever known in life or online, even if they're not scientists, are enthusiastic about science. A theist will often like science more the way they like tennis or stamp collecting. So among say amateur astronomers religious people might be much more common because that doesn't require the same investment.

To give an example my little sister is not particularly religious, but she does believe in the supernatural and spiritual. She originally was going to go into Physics, but she found that to really do anything with it took a major commitment of time and effort. So she switched to Japanese language and now teaches in Japan.

An atheist I think might be more likely to stick to it because from an atheistic perspective science is usually seen as the best source of truth. This doesn't mean an atheist would be less likely to go into accounting or law, but I think science is more central in most modern atheist's worldview.

I didn't really mean there are some occupations that are more theistic than average. Although I wouldn't be surprised if nursing, sports occupations, and carpentry are a tad more religious than average.

Lastly I think I said science is more central to atheists lives not that an atheists life necessarily revolves around science. Still I think I may have implied atheist lives do revolve around science, which I suppose is true in an indirect sense but also misleading. It's true in the sense that atheists, usually, don't believe in anything other than what can be explained by science. Hence their life revolves around science because everything in their life is, in their opinion, reducible to science. Even their own minds. However it's misleading because it doesn't mean everything in their life is directly related to studying science or relating to the scientific community. Anyway I hope that will be all for a good while.

Last edited by Thomas R.; 01-17-2010 at 02:58 PM..
 
Old 01-17-2010, 02:46 PM
 
1,462 posts, read 588,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisMundi View Post
Like it's sibling religion, Islam choked science off at the root when Islam gained power.

If one wants to find the roots of modern science, then one has to travel farther back, to pre-Christian Greece.

Hippocrates, Aristotle, Euclid, Aristarchus, Archimedes of Syracus...

The list of notables is quite long.

So, what did these "scientists" of Baghdad and Al-Andalus invent?
Excuse me, but while Europe wallowed in the Dark Ages where not even most priests could read, the Islamic world was going through an era of scientific growth in science, math, engineering, and astronomy. They established the emprical method of scientific reseaerch which is the basis of what we use today. The first astronomical research institutes were established. Hospitals were established to cure the sick instead of just helping with the suffering, and lending libraries were set up (card catalog anyone, guess where and when, not in Europe). The oldest university in the world was established in 859 in Morocco - this was the first of many. Doctors had to have degrees; one could not just call himself a doctor. All of this while the Christian world was mired in darkness. Many European court doctors were Jewish in this era and they got their training in the Islamic world which at this time included Spain. One should not confuse modern Islamic radicals which all of Islam or Islamic tradition and history. And why is a Jewish person (me) having to explain this in the first place?
 
Old 01-17-2010, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 6,998,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I don't think science is central to the lives of Atheists either, at least not in my life...More important to me are the people in my life....Although I do have a keen interest in science, particularly the natural sciences...I agree that it is just a tool for understanding the universe...
I'd agree. I just happened to appreciate it's clarity and the logic and rationality of the answers it provided me, s compared to the nonsense I was being fed as a young teenager in my Church, plus my youth minister telling me to not ask such problematic questions.

I came from a very religious family, but converted, after much personal mental exercise, to be (1) an atheist, and the (2) a practicing, professional scientist.

Now then to Sir Les (to which I'll start by saying "Oy....)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Les View Post
Science is in my understanding ...observation of what is,.... in regards to human science,..it is scewed to one side,Limited to certain knowns, and observed truths of what is visible to them, and in some regards constant or consistant in its actions/state/reality,.. because the other side is not seen, and everything is not known to humankind on this world...and the observer has little to no understanding as to what it is he or she is observing,....when looking at this world, or the universe....they make theories...according to they methods of observating that is not always perfect, because of the unknown variables that also effect the state or subject.

Well SL, you are entirely, 180˚ out of synch with reality. Science exists to answer questions about the unknown. You state, right here, that it only observes what is. Of course it does, but the larger question is "Why is it that way?" which is what science answers best. Reliably.

We are always looking for new and novel ways to explore that central question, and we have not been disappointed. We now know much about our universe that the biblical authors could not have known or imagined, we know about DNA and genetics and Evolution of species and nuclear physics and on and on. All discovered and proven to be facts by the application of objective, unbiased scientific research. if it had been as biased as you seem to think, the answers would not stand up to further scrutiny or replication of the experiment, but they do.


God knows all states, principles, and all things...and he/she knows how to minipulate them, for he/she created them....and he/she knows there are rouge variables...but once the nature of the variables are known and mapped out...all things become known!

That is the reason why I say...God is the greatest scientist...because God has all the truths about all things...

Wrong again. Knowing everything would make the application of any science pointless. Science is not a set of facts in some book. It's a process to acquire those facts. This is a very common misunderstanding of non-scientists, and it's part of why they despise it so much; they are threatened by the facts, and mistake those facts for the tool set that discovered them.

If there were a God, he's made far too many mistakes that have resulted in the extinction of millions of species. Humans are fraught with medical problems because, in fact our minds have evolved faster than our bodies. Fact upon fact.


Humans on this world, are just starting to see some of the variables....as the patterns of behavior over long periods of time show that there is a woe and wrath for certain behavior....

Ahh yes, the threat concept.

Human bent science is now genetically modifying Plants/food/seeds....and it is not for the betterment of the people, nor the planet, or the animals. or insects....it is to make a product that only grows once from that altered seed...any seeds taken from the fruit of such a plant grown from this genetic seed...is useless and unfruitful...thus more seed needs to be bought...

It may be misdirected, but it's also an attempt to make our limited food resources more productive. But that's not Science, SL, that's man's greed. Science, again, is just the reliable process for answering questions, and you should not despise a tool for the misuse by it's owner. Christians who dislike science make this mistake on a daily basis.


Science is working against us here....

No, your selfish fellow man is, not a simple Q&A (question and answer) method. This is like saying that handguns cause bank robberies. Do you think that, SL?

Maybe a message from Jonah?...perhaps?...

So! Do you believe a whale swallowed a man and that he stayed alive inside it for three days, bathed in digestive acids and corrosive enzymes, SL? Just curious, and trying to get a handle on your level of belief and education.

and not just one whale, many whales..and other things washing up on the shores...unknown things...or why the cows are going mad...or the chickens are getting sick...or the fish are tainted with heavey metals...

Now I wonder just what it is science doesn't understand about God...to actually go in the opposite direction, and even to denie the existance of a greator being, that knows more than they do about LIFE and Death....to which they haven't even been able to prove whether we are in Life or Death...alive or dead...positive or negitive...To God.

Because through a simple set of questions, we have determined that all the critically important stories in the bible, necessary parts of teh total Christian myth, have been found out. Busted, as they say. They have been discredited to my satisfaction, at every turn. I don't need a false set of beliefs to live by, and I am not an evil person because I don't subscribe to your beliefs. Mine are based on an ever-growing level of proven facts and knowledge, a synthesis of all the accumulated wealth of knowledge we now have at our disposal.

Yours seems to be based on believing an ancient book that couldn't even figure out the seasons or fire.


Now something is true to that...and science will not acknowledge it...and yet we have many patterns That show this to be true, over a very long time line!

Which patterns, specifically?

God is Truth...and Jesus is his son...and he said God's word is trustworthy and true!
Thus there are no mistakes with God.

If we are livng in death...and God wants us to come out of it...and the way in taking in (disobediance) causing Death...is the way out backwards restoring (Sinlessly)...would be a model that should work!

and we only have to test it and see what happens when we try...the answer is at hand...what do we have to loose?

remember the commandments...and stay away from doing evil.....oh and No money required...no killing...no coveting...no thieving...etc..

This is all proselytizing, and completely off topic, but I'll let it go. Perhaps you can't really answer my questions.

Then just put it back and say sorry to God for what ever sins we have been decieved into under that Idol that is destroying this planet...for false profits and bent gains...in nothing important, if it destroys the planet we live on...and the neighbour that live with us....what does that observation look like?...as a scientist of some merit?

Again, science is not a political or philosophical entity that can provide such information. It's only the tool we use to gain useful information. how we use it belongs in teh realm of spirituality or philosophy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
That's a good point. It is also a tool that can be used for making the world a better place. As a Christian, however, I agree with Thomas's statement that it is essentially amoral -- it can be used for both good and evil. Moreover it cannot answer the important questions about man's origin, purpose, and destiny.

In fact I suspect that even some atheists (those who adhere to some kind of moral code) can agree that technology can be used for both good and evil ends.

Wow! Finally a topic on which we can find some agreement.
Agreed. but again, some choose to purposefully misunderstand, or mis-represent it because of the threat it poses to their life's beliefs. I wonder how many of them could admit they'd have a"devil of a time" changing in mid-stream, even if they found out their beliefs were in error....
 
Old 01-17-2010, 03:03 PM
 
4,529 posts, read 3,220,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoEdible View Post
How about not generalizing "Christians" and say, "Why do some Christians despise science?" And even "despise" is kinda extreme. Yes, some do, but I think it is not as common as people who generalize think. That's how misunderstandings and conflicts start, people go into things thinking overall about something. I am Christian and I love science.

That's kinda messed up for you to title your thread that way and to have that approach to Christians.
Polls state only some 39% of Americans "believe" in evolution.

Evolution is a science.
 
Old 01-17-2010, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,948 posts, read 18,542,622 times
Reputation: 9889
Quote:
Originally Posted by newhandle View Post
Excuse me, but while Europe wallowed in the Dark Ages where not even most priests could read, the Islamic world was going through an era of scientific growth in science, math, engineering, and astronomy. They established the emprical method of scientific reseaerch which is the basis of what we use today. The first astronomical research institutes were established. Hospitals were established to cure the sick instead of just helping with the suffering, and lending libraries were set up (card catalog anyone, guess where and when, not in Europe). The oldest university in the world was established in 859 in Morocco - this was the first of many. Doctors had to have degrees; one could not just call himself a doctor. All of this while the Christian world was mired in darkness. Many European court doctors were Jewish in this era and they got their training in the Islamic world which at this time included Spain. One should not confuse modern Islamic radicals which all of Islam or Islamic tradition and history. And why is a Jewish person (me) having to explain this in the first place?
So what happened? Why are they so far behind today?
 
Old 01-17-2010, 05:08 PM
 
1,268 posts, read 1,038,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
In fact I suspect that even some atheists (those who adhere to some kind of moral code) can agree that technology can be used for both good and evil ends.
All atheists adhere to a moral code - the same moral code that most humans adhere to, including Christians.
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