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Old 05-26-2007, 12:55 AM
 
9,763 posts, read 10,502,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
John 1:1-2 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God."

John 1:14-17 - "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’” And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (The word made flesh in Jesus)
Mams, mams, mams. You're not actually claiming that the Word from John 1 is referring to the Bible, are you?

 
Old 05-26-2007, 12:58 AM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,893,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Where? I don't see it.
Mark, now I KNOW you're kidding me.

You don't see the above verses?

Are they on the gray background from quoting and hard to see for that reason? Can you copy and paste them into a document? Did the font show up really tiny on your computer? "Do not diminish a word." "And Baruch wrote...ALL the words of the Lord..." "And Moses wrote ALL the words of the Lord."

I can paste more if you need more. I hope you don't need me to. I mean they're, like, three posts up from right here.
 
Old 05-26-2007, 05:21 AM
 
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,382,102 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pladecalvo View Post
Another 'personal interpretation'. Please show in the relevant scripture where it says "The branch he hung himself on broke and the corpse fell to the ground and the bowls spilled out". There is absolutely nothing, anywhere that says anything about the branch breaking so where do you get it from?
You know, I'm amazed that when a Christian uses his brain to take two pieces of evidence and come to a reasonable conclusion the cry is, "another personal interpretation!" The Christian is, therefore, an idiot and the skeptic is the heroic genius for showing the world the error of the Christian thought process.

However, let an atheist, evolutionist, or anyone else use his brain to take two pieces of evidence and come to a reasonable conclusion, that person is a genius, is following acceptable methods, etc. The Christian skeptic who opposes these questionable findings and has his own reasonable interpretation is still an idiot.

I'm even more amazed that these same geniuses that can make reasonable interpretations in science and other areas of life, need a dot-to-dot diagram when it comes to understanding Biblical concepts. After all, the Bible was written by a bunch of uneducated goat-herders, so how hard can it be to understand?

Last edited by Blueberry; 05-26-2007 at 05:25 AM.. Reason: Edited to rightfully credit quote
 
Old 05-26-2007, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Hickville USA
5,888 posts, read 3,761,314 times
Reputation: 28529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueberry View Post
You know, I'm amazed that when a Christian uses his brain to take two pieces of evidence and come to a reasonable conclusion the cry is, "another personal interpretation!" The Christian is, therefore, an idiot and the skeptic is the heroic genius for showing the world the error of the Christian thought process.

However, let an atheist, evolutionist, or anyone else use his brain to take two pieces of evidence and come to a reasonable conclusion, that person is a genius, is following acceptable methods, etc. The Christian skeptic who opposes these questionable findings and has his own reasonable interpretation is still an idiot.

I'm even more amazed that these same geniuses that can make reasonable interpretations in science and other areas of life, need a dot-to-dot diagram when it comes to understanding Biblical concepts. After all, the Bible was written by a bunch of uneducated goat-herders, so how hard can it be to understand?
Whew!! Glad I'm on your side! You sound a whole lot like that NorthSouth person, but please, don't let that stop you! I'm loving it!
 
Old 05-26-2007, 06:48 AM
 
Location: Hickville USA
5,888 posts, read 3,761,314 times
Reputation: 28529
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Mams, mams, mams. You're not actually claiming that the Word from John 1 is referring to the Bible, are you?
Since Mams hasn't had a chance to respond, you know I will.

Yes, that is exactly what he is saying...not claiming. But again, you misunderstand. This is why Christians study the Bible, because it's full of parables and riddles that are not always clear. This, however, it pretty clear.

Really pay attention to what is being said here, in the Bible:

"And the Word (Capitalized in the Bible because it is referring to God as "the Word") was made flesh (God and Jesus are one in the same, therefore, "the Word" which is Jesus, was born of a virgin and became flesh & blood) and dwelt among us (Jesus lived among us) and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (he was perfect and glorious because he was God's only Son) full of grace and truth. (He was/is the only answer)

It's not our duty as Christians to disect (take apart) every single verse in the Bible for you. It's your duty to study it and get your own understanding, just like we have.
 
Old 05-26-2007, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
954 posts, read 810,554 times
Reputation: 202
[quote=Blueberry;777209]
Quote:
You know, I'm amazed that when a Christian uses his brain to take two pieces of evidence and come to a reasonable conclusion the cry is, "another personal interpretation!" The Christian is, therefore, an idiot and the skeptic is the heroic genius for showing the world the error of the Christian thought process.
.....but it isn't for you to come to any conclusion or to interpret your bible as to what you think it means.

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy spirit spoke under the influence of god." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

Quote:
However, let an atheist, evolutionist, or anyone else use his brain to take two pieces of evidence and come to a reasonable conclusion, that person is a genius, is following acceptable methods, etc. The Christian skeptic who opposes these questionable findings and has his own reasonable interpretation is still an idiot.
Unless it can be proven, science does not claim that it is the absolute truth, unlike theists!

Quote:
I'm even more amazed that these same geniuses that can make reasonable interpretations in science and other areas of life, need a dot-to-dot diagram when it comes to understanding Biblical concepts. After all, the Bible was written by a bunch of uneducated goat-herders, so how hard can it be to understand?
At least we agree on one thing anyway!
 
Old 05-26-2007, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,915 posts, read 18,588,841 times
Reputation: 5524
plad wrote:
Quote:
I hear you JerZ. I know it will come but you know....whether it's a Greek bull or Hebrew bull that takes a s**t it still smells like bulls**t! Whoops! Am I allowed to say that??
And behold! Plad spake forth but was smitten down by an angel and cast into the outer darkness where people gnash their teeth!
 
Old 05-26-2007, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Maine
22,864 posts, read 28,127,532 times
Reputation: 31073
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Mark, now I KNOW you're kidding me.

You don't see the above verses?

Are they on the gray background from quoting and hard to see for that reason? Can you copy and paste them into a document? Did the font show up really tiny on your computer? "Do not diminish a word." "And Baruch wrote...ALL the words of the Lord..." "And Moses wrote ALL the words of the Lord."

I can paste more if you need more. I hope you don't need me to. I mean they're, like, three posts up from right here.
I saw the ones you posted. But nothing in them made the claim that you said they did. That's what threw me. Look again at the verses, then what you wrote about them. See my disconnect?
 
Old 05-26-2007, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Maine
22,864 posts, read 28,127,532 times
Reputation: 31073
Jerz, here is where you lost me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Do you all then believe literally that the OT and that the NT were direct words of God? Because if not, if you doubt any of it or think it's an allegory, then you doubt all of it.
Your first question: Got it. Yes, I do believe that the OT and NT is the Word of God (though I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "literally;" I might quibble over that).

But then you write: "if...any of it...is an allegory, then you doubt all of it."

That's where you lost me. LARGE parts of Scripture utilize metaphor, symbolism, etc. to convey Truth. Ezekiel saw all those very weird beasts that would give Lovecraft pause. John saw angels with six wings, dragons with ten horns, a crystal throne, etc. Jesus often taught with parables.

Sometimes the best way to convey truth is through symbol and metaphor, because literal words put Truth in too restrictive a box.

Then you lost me again with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
I have heard so many people say the Adam and Eve story might be "allegorical" but "still the truth". THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SUPPORT THIS. AT ALL. It says it is THE LITERAL WORD OF GOD.
Those verses you quoted say nothing about Adam and Eve and say nothing about "literal" anything. Jeremiah didn't write the book of Genesis. In fact, Jeremiah didn't even write the book of Jeremiah. Baruch did. (Baruch also wrote the book of Baruch, which the Protestants booted out of their Bible.)
 
Old 05-26-2007, 10:13 AM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,893,282 times
Reputation: 26919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Jerz, here is where you lost me:
Your first question: Got it. Yes, I do believe that the OT and NT is the Word of God (though I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "literally;" I might quibble over that).

But then you write: "if...any of it...is an allegory, then you doubt all of it."

That's where you lost me. LARGE parts of Scripture utilize metaphor, symbolism, etc. to convey Truth. Ezekiel saw all those very weird beasts that would give Lovecraft pause. John saw angels with six wings, dragons with ten horns, a crystal throne, etc. Jesus often taught with parables.
Yes, and when they're *large portions* of strange spacey incense-and-peppermints stuff, obviously those entire passages (or books) were meant to be metaphor.

What I'm referring to in doubting, are the books of the Bible that are *not meant to be taken as allegory, but rather as actual history, actual fact*. Unless you're thinking that MML&J are metaphor. (I do, actually, but that's another whole thread and has been done to death.) I am speaking of contradictions *within stories that are meant to be taken as fact*. And nowhere in Genesis do we get the feeling that it's not meant to be taken as fact. In fact, the entire idea of Judaism and Christianity is encompassed in the story of the Fall. If the Fall hadn't happened, we wouldn't be open to sin and wouldn't need to be saved from anything. Right?

My statement, doubting all of it if you doubt any of it, means that if you find a contradiction between, say, Luke and Matthew, and say "well, THAT one part maybe didn't have to be literal but was just a general guideline of the general time in history," well, if *that one part* can be false, you have to then doubt the rest of the document, because there could be other parts that are false. I mean that's just common sense.

As far as the Adam and Eve reference, Baruch didn't write Exodus which as you can see is also quoted above. Supposedly, Moses did (I have my doubts there too but we'll leave that aside for the moment)....and of course, Genesis too, in which we find the story of the Fall. In *many places* in Exodus, God repeats himself on the point that his words are to be taken literally. Just because God doesn't say "take my words literally!" after every single word He utters, and just because the first five books of the Bible don't say "And this part too is literal!" doesn't mean that, well, maybe part X doesn't have to be taken literally. I mean that's a very overly simplistic and not entirely honest way of looking at things..."Mommy said we can't have candy!" "That's not true. She said that an hour ago. She didn't say, '...and you must continue to not have candy.' Since she didn't come in to say it again every hour, then maybe this is the hour we can have candy. Let's eat!"
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