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Not all theists claim God is comprehensible... please go read some Pseudodionysius or other church fathers. God in his essential nature is unknowable, which is why Christians must have faith that Jesus Christ is the self-revelation of God (that we cannot know God outside of God revealing Himself). This is why many Christians reject or downplay natural theology and philosophy.
Religious language is not necessarily facts about God as much as a system of thought to purify the mind so that one can intuit reality directly and clearly free from selfish passions that blind us. "God is loving so that I may be loving", "God is good so that I may be good", and so on. Trying to understand religious language, accepting it as flat facts, can often be problematic, but religious language is always contextual within a community, in this case withing the Christian community, the Church.
I never said all theists claim God is comprehensible. I am very careful to say some theists when I speak because I know they don't all believe the same thing. But, my point still remains, "God did it" is not an explanation.
I never said all theists claim God is comprehensible. I am very careful to say some theists when I speak because I know they don't all believe the same thing. But, my point still remains, "God did it" is not an explanation.
Of course it can be used as an explanation...just not one YOU et al can appreciate or comprehend.
Like "Because I love/hate you", is an explanation...to the lover or the hater.
If one sees all that comprises our reality as "God"....then "God did" anything and everything that has ever occurred.
Of course it can be used as an explanation...just not one YOU et al can appreciate or comprehend.
Like "Because I love/hate you", is an explanation...to the lover or the hater.
If one sees all that comprises our reality as "God"....then "God did" anything and everything that has ever occurred.
Have you only read the last post and ignored everything else? It seems like it.
If you asked me to explain how a car engine works, and I said, you turn the key in the ignition and the engine runs, would you accept that as an explanation? Most people would say, no. To explain how an engine works, I'd say turning the key, completes a circuit that sends electricity from the battery to the starter. The starter has a solonoid (a cylinder) with grooves at the end. When electricity is sent to the starter, the solonoid sticks out to engage the engine's flywheel and starts spinning. The flywheel is connected to the crankshaft and when flywheel spins the crank shaft turns. As the crank shaft turns, pistons go up and down. As a piston goes down gasoline is injected through the fuel injector as a mist/gas and mixes with air. As the piston goes up, the air/gas mixture is compressed, and a spark plug creates a spark that ignites the gas and causes a small explosion forcing the piston down which turns the crank shaft. Each piston is in a slightly different position in its cycle relative to the other pistons, so each downward thrust from each piston is timed to keep the crank shaft turning. When the driver hears the engine is running, he or she allows the key to turn back to the "ON" position disrupting the current to the starter, which then withdraws its solonoid from the flywheel.
That is an explanation. If you wanted an explanation as to how the earth was created without a god, you would most likely not accept, "Nature did it" as an explanation. You'd want to know exactly how, how it is possible for the elements to organize themselves, etc. Saying "God did it" is not an explanation, either. In order for it to be an explanation, we need to hear how god did it. How is he able to move the elements to organize them? Take us step by step, he speaks then what? How does his speech physically move matter, etc? If you can't explain that, then you haven't offered an explanation.
I am responding to this post out of order because I can do it quick before I head to work.
I have always acknowledged that it is within the realm of possibility that a god of some sort created the heavens and the earth. But, since the mechanism is not put forward, we do not have an explanation. We must have the step by step mechanics before we can say we have an explanation. That is why, "God did it" is not an explanation and does not explain anything. See my post #58.
I do not agree with those who say "God created the heavens and the earth, so we should stop seeking the mechanism".
God IS the creator. We just haven't broken the code of the mechanism used for creation yet (and probably never will).
I do not agree with those who say "God created the heavens and the earth, so we should stop seeking the mechanism".
God IS the creator. We just haven't broken the code of the mechanism used for creation yet (and probably never will).
And until you do, you don't have an explanation. That is all I am saying. Neither of us have an explanation yet for how the universe came to be, how life got started, or how consciousness works. So, those theists who think they have one up on us because they think they have an explanation, whereas we don't - they don't have an explanation either. They credit god, we think nature is probably responsible, but neither of us have an explanation.
When one begins with the premise that "God IS the creator" as a given, everything that follows will be skewed with that premise in mind.
When one begins with the premise that "Nature IS the creator" as a given, everything that follows will be skewed with that premise in mind. The difference is that IF it is necessary that life, consciousness and intelligence be part of Nature to logically account for our life, consciousness and intelligence . . . then Nature would automatically be God anyway.
Have you only read the last post and ignored everything else? It seems like it.
If you asked me to explain how a car engine works, and I said, you turn the key in the ignition and the engine runs, would you accept that as an explanation? Most people would say, no. To explain how an engine works, I'd say turning the key, completes a circuit that sends electricity from the battery to the starter. The starter has a solonoid (a cylinder) with grooves at the end. When electricity is sent to the starter, the solonoid sticks out to engage the engine's flywheel and starts spinning. The flywheel is connected to the crankshaft and when flywheel spins the crank shaft turns. As the crank shaft turns, pistons go up and down. As a piston goes down gasoline is injected through the fuel injector as a mist/gas and mixes with air. As the piston goes up, the air/gas mixture is compressed, and a spark plug creates a spark that ignites the gas and causes a small explosion forcing the piston down which turns the crank shaft. Each piston is in a slightly different position in its cycle relative to the other pistons, so each downward thrust from each piston is timed to keep the crank shaft turning. When the driver hears the engine is running, he or she allows the key to turn back to the "ON" position disrupting the current to the starter, which then withdraws its solonoid from the flywheel.
That is an explanation. If you wanted an explanation as to how the earth was created without a god, you would most likely not accept, "Nature did it" as an explanation. You'd want to know exactly how, how it is possible for the elements to organize themselves, etc. Saying "God did it" is not an explanation, either. In order for it to be an explanation, we need to hear how god did it. How is he able to move the elements to organize them? Take us step by step, he speaks then what? How does his speech physically move matter, etc? If you can't explain that, then you haven't offered an explanation.
No....that is a more detailed explanation. That doesn't mean the more simplistic one isn't also an explanation.
I'll accept "nature did it" for the God Claim that it is...since "nature" is just a pseudonym for ""God".
Well, you stated that once before. Yet your presence endures. I'm not saying you should leave, but insulting all atheists deosn't help your case. Besides that, it isn't creative.
I do not report to yourself catman. Do I make myself clear. I hope so.
Suggesting that my presence "endures" in arranged context above expresses
yet further in-appropriate non-relevant insulting commentary. ( leading
Atheists in this forum... do nothing but... exercise blunt personal slants at theists. Theres no end to the ill based remarks. Attention span..? A proper blast is perfectly appropriate. ( more than 75% of the garble is theists defending personal insults , name calling, belittlement, dis-respect, ignored of timely spent replies in co-operation.....ect ect. An abundance of anti-charitable initiatives to strike out at another....no doubt about it. As easily seen in yet another thoughtless comment above. Thoughtlessness is what is ruining the world....
If I feel a need to defend a virtuous cause , I will do so. I don't believe there is much interest on my part in this forum although there is interest in
defending my over all contribution....
Maybe I will start a thread .....Finishing School for the Contemporary Philosopher....First semester an approach to Table Manners, a focus on tabling thoughts without provoking inflammatory off topic garble ...This is important. A little too busy at present...Perhaps GOD will inspire later on...who knows
Last edited by Blue Hue; 01-04-2012 at 01:14 PM..
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