My Journey Out of Mormonism (America, Revelation, prophet, LDS)

[charolastra00]

Originally Posted by justamere10

So what is your objective then, what are you trying to achieve? You've already told us in great detail how you succeeded in becoming an apostate from Mormonism and even turned your back on Jesus Christ. We know that now, it's a predictable path for those who do the things you did. Deny it all you will but in my opinion you clearly did lose your faith and put your trust in your intellect and arm of flesh writers. Anybody can do that!

Are you now trying to further justify your conversion to atheism, or perhaps trying to win converts to your new cause?

At least he is not rudely coming to our doors as Mormons choose to do in their scheme for converts.

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by charolastra00

At least he is not rudely coming to our doors as Mormons choose to do in their scheme for converts.

That's your point of view.

Two of those "rude" Mormons came to my door a long time ago and left me with things that have blessed me and my family so much I would not want to even begin contemplating how my life would have turned out without that visit.

Those young ordained ministers of God are serving voluntarily and selflessly at their own expense and without pay for two years with the hope of sharing what they know and believe with others who have not been so blessed.

Give them a break, they gave up education, job, home, girl friend and family for you, if you would only have listened or at least been polite enough to say "no" pleasantly.

[Hueffenhardt]

Originally Posted by justamere10

So what is your objective then, what are you trying to achieve? You've already told us in great detail how you succeeded in becoming an apostate from Mormonism and even turned your back on Jesus Christ. We know that now, it's a predictable path for those who do the things you did. Deny it all you will but in my opinion you clearly did lose your faith and put your trust in your intellect and arm of flesh writers. Anybody can do that!

Are you now trying to further justify your conversion to atheism, or perhaps trying to win converts to your new cause?

I have spent a lifetime learning about Mormonism. I dare say I have some expertise in this subject. I share what I have learned with others who want to know. It is the same motivation that causes a movie buff to share her knowledge or an artist curator to share his knowledge.

For many atheists, we have an intense interest in religion, that is why we love to discuss it. It is fascinating and complex. It is also intriguing because we often want to understand how people can continue to believe in spite of all the evidence available.

Many lines of interest merge while looking at religion: psychological factors, historical factors, logic and reason, intense feelings like awe and transcendence, personal mysteries, big questions like death and the purpose of life, cultural influences, etc.

I share my thoughts and opinions on this forum because I enjoy discussing and debating issues surrounding religion. Good conversation is stimulating and satisfying. It is fun to exchange ideas. It feels good to answer people's questions.

I am fine with others believing whatever they want to religiously. It is no sweat off my back if someone believes in god or the bible. I don't need people to agree with me to justify why I believe what I believe.

The way I believe, we are all going to die anyway, so why should I care what you believe. It matters to me only if one's beliefs encourage them to bomb innocents or persecute gays or oppress women or non-believers or infringe on others rights.

But, I value logical thinking and I do want to promote it. So, I do proselyte rational thought. Why? Because I think our short lives would be much better if we all learned how to evaluate evidence, and avoid logical errors, etc.

I believe people who ask questions about Mormonism deserve to hear the whole truth, not just a watered down faith promoting version. Look, some things are subjective, you may see it one way, and I may legitimately see it another. But, there are many objective facts as well, which are true regardless of who is looking at them - people may try to spin or ignore or be ignorant of them, but they are true still the same.

What makes me different from the believers? I don't believe that believers are any less smart or that they are spiritually superior, etc. I was a believer just a short time ago. I am fundamentally the same person I was then. What changed? I became aware of some evidence that I was not aware of before - that is it, really. I was always logical and willing to confront the truth wherever it leads me. I just didn't know. I find that a lot of my family members don't want to know. They won't look, perhaps because they are afraid of what they might find. Some have closed their minds in that they know they are right and don't care what the evidence is to the contrary, they are not going to consider it. I think that is disappointing. An unwillingness to learn or change your mind as new evidence comes along is unattractive.

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt

I share my thoughts and opinions on this forum because I enjoy discussing and debating issues surrounding religion. Good conversation is stimulating and satisfying. It is fun to exchange ideas. It feels good to answer people's questions.

Good come back Huef, can't argue with that. But stay on your toes.

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt

...What makes me different from the believers? I don't believe that believers are any less smart or that they are spiritually superior, etc. I was a believer justa short time ago. I am fundamentally the same person I was then. What changed? I became aware of some evidence that I was not aware of before - that is it, really. I was always logical and willing to confront the truth wherever it leads me. I just didn't know. I find that a lot of my family members don't want to know. They won't look, perhaps because they are afraid of what they might find. Some have closed their minds in that they know they are right and don't care what the evidence is to the contrary, they are not going to consider it. I think that is disappointing. An unwillingness to learn or change your mind as new evidence comes along is unattractive.

Why would people who are perfectly content with their own garden allow themselves to be lured to someone else's supposedly 'greener' pasture?

I think the reason why almost all faithful Mormons would refuse to follow you an atheist regardless of how "logical" and informed about arm of flesh things you might be is because they know for themselves that God lives and that He will never tell them that you are right and that He doesn't exist! (Seems logical to me...)

It's quite likely that the reason why you felt you didn't belong in the company of faithful Mormons is because you put your trust in your intellect and reasoning (physical faculties) while most faithful to the end Mormons put their trust in Jesus Christ and have faith in him and God's plan of salvation. As I said, you lost your faith!

[Roxolan]

Thank you for the good read. I am glad that you have found your place in atheism. One question: how did your community react to your "deconversion"? Given your position, I imagine that many in your family and social circle are Mormons too. Did your deconversion sever any links? Have you had to discuss the evidence that led you to atheism?

[Hueffenhardt]

Originally Posted by justamere10

It's quite likely that the reason why you felt you didn't belong in the company of faithful Mormons is because you put your trust in your intellect and reasoning (physical faculties) while most faithful to the end Mormons put their trust in Jesus Christ and have faith in him and God's plan of salvation. As I said, you lost your faith!

I always thought truth would not contradict truth. Whether something was revealed or logically inferred, it should be the same. "The glory of God is intelligence" so says the Book of Abraham. The spirit "will tell you in your mind and in your heart" (D&C 8:2). Intellect and reason was designed by God to be one more medium to learn truth.

Now, we know that the mind can make mistakes, logical fallacies, non sequiturs, confirmation bias, etc. So, in general, if there was any doubt, our default was to fall back on the scriptures and other revelations. But, faith can only exist in the absence of knowledge. As long as there was any doubt in what the physical evidence was telling me, I kept believing in Mormonism. I always gave it the benefit of every doubt. But, by the end there was not doubt to give it the benefit of. I had knowledge; there was no mistake, no logical fallacy, confirmation bias had been controlled for. With all the passion of a defense attorney I searched for some whole in the evidence, but there was none. The Book of Abraham was a fraud; case closed. So, the revelations, personal or otherwise, that the Book of Abraham was true must be in error. I learned for myself that the Spirit is not a reliable source of truth. Therefore, it makes no sense to trust it over what logic can tell you.

No one ever put their trust in Jesus, for no one has ever actually experienced Jesus. What does one really have, and what has one really putting their trust in? Some feelings, some thoughts that have come into your mind, the words of fallible men (prophets), words that were written by men. It is an error to equate feelings and man's words with god himself. So, one one side of the balance you do not have Jesus, you have the words of men who claim to speak for god and some feelings you had versus a well-researched and reasoned and cross examined definitive evidence on the other side of the balance. Something has to give. I think those that put their trust in scriptures and prophets and feelings they get in prayer are the real ones who put their trust in the arm of flesh.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt

You act as though I traded my birthright for a mess of pottage. Perhaps you believe I did.

Actually, I don't. I think you genuinely believe that it is not true, and I think God (presuming He exists ) values integrity every bit as much as you or I do.

But, I did not leave Mormonism or post my story for fame or praise. I am just as shocked as you that Christians are proud of me leaving Mormonism when it meant I left theism as well.

Actually, I don't even think most of them got past your leaving Mormonism. Once that fact hit them squarely between the eyes, they were on such a high that nothing else really mattered. Their response may also be explained by the mentality I saw exhibited on a thread I started in the Christianity forum. It was the consensus of the majority of the Christians on the forum that of the two "evils," (1) atheism, and (2) universalism, atheism was the better choice. In other words, they would rather see their children reject God entirely than believe He was loving enough to welcome everyone into Heaven. It's seriously getting to the point where I am having a hard time calling myself a "Christian." Mormonism is almost starting to have less of a stigma than Christianity.

Integrity is an important word to me, and I could not stay Mormon in good conscience and thereby lead others to think I believed it was true when I now knew that it was not. I share my story because I want to be understood, I want others who are on a similar journey to know they are not alone, and I feel my story is informative.

Well, I won't question your motives. I do feel that it's often easier for people to leave Mormonism than it is for them to leave it alone, but time will tell what your purposes are.

Surprisingly, our disbelief in an afterlife was not all that difficult for us. If we are right, when we die, we are dead, so we aren't aware of anything. We experience no emotions, so we can't long for or miss anyone. So, there is no pain for us after we die.

Now, as for the survivor; no survivor is likely to see their departed lover until their own death, even if an afterlife is real. So, both believers and non-believers have to wait out the rest of their mortal lives without contact with the departed spouse. So, there is essentially no difference there, both will miss their loved ones for the rest of their lives. Both the believer and the non-believer believe there will be an end to their pain at their own deaths. If the non-believer is right, when they die, they die, and they will no longer miss anyone.

I realize you're right. I've already thought about that, and I realize that when I die, if there is no afterlife, I won't be bothered by that fact in the slightest. For me, though, if I were the survivor (as will likely be the case), life would be unbearable without at least the hope of a reunion.

[Hueffenhardt]

Originally Posted by Roxolan

One question: how did your community react to your "deconversion"? Given your position, I imagine that many in your family and social circle are Mormons too. Did your deconversion sever any links? Have you had to discuss the evidence that led you to atheism?

First, let me be very clear that I never attempted to push my new beliefs on any of my Mormon associates or family. I knew that would not go over well. So, I said nothing about the evidence unless I was asked first by them.

Things could have been much worse. We all get along well with our families and in-laws. We just never discuss religion. I told our families that when we visit them, we will still join in their scripture reading and prayers, but we will not offer in prayers. We attend our nieces and nephews baby blessings and baptisms. And my in-laws have attended the naming ceremonies for my children at the UU.

Our families are sad and disappointed. They think we are wrong and we think they are wrong. We came out to our families in a letter, so that we could explain ourselves and why we will no longer be attended temple weddings, or blessing our children, etc. They think we have destroyed their eternal family. My mother-in-law thinks this is just a phase and we will eventually come back, but it ain't going happen.

Many of our LDS friends just ended all contact with us. One positive note, one of my wife's younger sisters studied her way out of Mormonism as well, so at least we have each other.

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt

I always thought truth would not contradict truth. Whether something was revealed or logically inferred, it should be the same. "The glory of God is intelligence" so says the Book of Abraham. The spirit "will tell you in your mind and in your heart" (D&C 8:2). Intellect and reason was designed by God to be one more medium to learn truth.

Now, we know that the mind can make mistakes, logical fallacies, non sequiturs, confirmation bias, etc. So, in general, if there was any doubt, our default was to fall back on the scriptures and other revelations. But, faith can only exist in the absence of knowledge. As long as there was any doubt in what the physical evidence was telling me, I kept believing in Mormonism. I always gave it the benefit of every doubt. But, by the end there was not doubt to give it the benefit of. I had knowledge; there was no mistake, no logical fallacy, confirmation bias had been controlled for. With all the passion of a defense attorney I searched for some whole in the evidence, but there was none. The Book of Abraham was a fraud; case closed. So, the revelations, personal or otherwise, that the Book of Abraham was true must be in error. I learned for myself that the Spirit is not a reliable source of truth. Therefore, it makes no sense to trust it over what logic can tell you.

No one ever put their trust in Jesus, for no one has ever actually experienced Jesus. What does one really have, and what has one really putting their trust in? Some feelings, some thoughts that have come into your mind, the words of fallible men (prophets), words that were written by men. It is an error to equate feelings and man's words with god himself. So, one one side of the balance you do not have Jesus, you have the words of men who claim to speak for god and some feelings you had versus a well-researched and reasoned and cross examined definitive evidence on the other side of the balance. Something has to give. I think those that put their trust in scriptures and prophets and feelings they get in prayer are the real ones who put their trust in the arm of flesh.

Oops, did you say GOD designed intellect and reason, and the SPIRIT is not reliable? (But your own physical faculties, you know, those things that actually begin to disintegrate at death, are reliable?) We'll pardon the slip, you're still a new convert to godlessness, you can't be expected to know everything about your new faith.

If faith can only exist in the absence of knowledge (as seems logical) then because you have no knowledge of God does that mean that you have faith in Him? (Just teasing...)

You say "I had knowledge." Does that mean you proved that God does not exist? Or perhaps you were limiting your "knowledge" to one portion of one of the books in the LDS canon? Did you also "prove" with your reasoning powers that the Book of Mormon and the Bible are also untrue?

Astonishingly for one who professes to once having been so religious, you make the statement that nobody has ever actually experienced Jesus!! Wow, I think a whole lot of Christians on this board would look askance at you. I won't reveal a lot in this public medium but probably like many other faithful Christians, if the resurrected Savior came and stood behind me, not only would I know someone was there, I would know WHO it was!

Many people know Jesus and the ministering of angels, but often such experiences are kept close to the heart, sacred, shared only with a trusted few. You seem to have missed out on some of the most important parts of being a Christian. But that worked out ok for you, it will make you a much better believer in the atheist faith.

My overall opinion of your post is that you made my earlier point exactly! You've got it all logically reasoned out to your own satisfaction.

That's the way true atheists do it.


As for me, I am perfectly content with the many many times that God has made His existence and presence known to me in marvelous ways that defy reason. Unless of course you know that you are a dual being composed of both physical and spiritual elements. God speaks to the spiritual part of our being. But atheists deny or cannot comprehend such a thing because it is their fond hope that nothing remains after the death of the physical body, and that they have no appointment with their Maker...