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Old 01-26-2010, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
128 posts, read 145,433 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
No religion has any proof whatsoever.

Period.

No, there is no proof and you have none.

Simply pointing to words in a book are fruitless and is no more legitimate than anyone else doing the same.

Like I stated before and repeat unapologetically now, Jesus left no book-he left a CHURCH.
No religion has any proof whatsoever.
Umm...you were saying???
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Old 01-26-2010, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
24,847 posts, read 31,261,547 times
Reputation: 10525
Quote:
Originally Posted by witty, wise and wicked View Post
Umm...you were saying???
I don't understand at all what ur asking.
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Old 01-26-2010, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
128 posts, read 145,433 times
Reputation: 115
Default I'm not ASKING anything...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
No religion has any proof whatsoever.

Period.

No, there is no proof and you have none.

Simply pointing to words in a book are fruitless and is no more legitimate than anyone else doing the same.

What you engage in quite frivolously when it comes to the Mormon Church is called hypocrisy.


There was no Jesus of the bible-Jesus was from the Holy Land. The bible is a book that a bunch of self-serving scholars and politicians agreed upon way after Jesus died. They included and excluded doctrine as it fit their agenda. This is why there are so many contradictions and oddities scattered about its text. The bible is true so long as it has been translated correctly.

Like I stated before and repeat unapologetically now, Jesus left no book-he left a CHURCH.

He left a tangible organization to continue his ministry. No Book, only people.

And certainly not a collection of churches and demoninations-only ONE.

Yes, and in 1820 he chose a witness that would restore his everlasting gospel to the world, never to be stifled again.

Not even by modern-day Pharisees, who in their arrogance seek to limit God's infinite power to a book. LOL

As if, you could.
But your quote and answer thing just shows that you are trying to make her (or him, not sure) sound like thier beliefs are wrong, or could be disputed, but in your comments/answers, you are doing the same thing about your own belifes...and I was pointing that out. You have NO PROOF that your belief system is anymore right or wrong than anyone else's.....if that was not your intent, than I apoligize, but ask that you explain, exactly, what your intent was in the above post?
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Old 01-26-2010, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
24,847 posts, read 31,261,547 times
Reputation: 10525
Quote:
Originally Posted by witty, wise and wicked View Post
But your quote and answer thing just shows that you are trying to make her (or him, not sure) sound like thier beliefs are wrong, or could be disputed, but in your comments/answers, you are doing the same thing about your own belifes.
In a historical context its true, Jesus left no book, of that there is no question.

He neither wrote, nor put together the bible.

We DO KNOW the EXACT origins of the bible. They are writing combined into a cohesive book by a group of thelogians and scholars LONG AFTER Jesus died. He had nothing to do with it.

Its also true that Jesus Christ did indeed leave an actual functioning church. It was organized with Apostles and the like.

And the bible came along much later.

That much we all KNOW.

Quote:
You have NO PROOF that your belief system is anymore right or wrong than anyone else's
I have no proof-correct. I can't email or text God and tell him to get back to me ASAP and prove to the people on C-D what is right and what is wrong.

But I do know this much and it doesnt even require faith, ironically only logic. If there is only one Jesus Christ then there is only ONE truth.

If there is only one truth its not going to be found in a myriad of churches-only one. One church which disallows women from wearing lipstick is not the same 'church' as another who allows women to wear lipstick. They are not the same.

Yet we see evangelicals of all stripes lining up in unison to claim that they are 'saved' and one wonders aloud..."you can't all be saved if you believe different things"...That is confusion and makes no sense.

Yet they act like they are indeed one church, when they really are NOT.

There is only one Jesus Christ who presides over one church.

As far as this:
Yes, and in 1820 he chose a witness that would restore his everlasting gospel to the world, never to be stifled again.

(It was more tit-for-tat than actually necessary for this conversation-sorry)
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Old 01-26-2010, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
128 posts, read 145,433 times
Reputation: 115
[quote=18Montclair;12623175]

I have no proof-correct. I can't email or text God and tell him to get back to me ASAP and prove to the people on C-D what is right and what is wrong.
And you can't ask anyone here on C-D to 'pray, fast, etc..' and get anymore 'testimony' than a monkey would to prove that your church is anymore right or wrong than mine, and neither could I.

But I do know this much and it doesnt even require faith, ironically only logic. If there is only one Jesus Christ then there is only ONE truth. We believe: I am the WAY, The TRUTH and the LIGHT.

If there is only one truth its not going to be found in a myriad of churches-only one. So, do any of us REALLY KNOW what church that may be?

One church which disallows women from wearing lipstick is not the same 'church' as another who allows women to wear lipstick. They are not the same. Soooo correct, I don't think that God frowns when I drink my coffee or have a glass of wine after a long, hectic day at work...(sorry, had to throw that in, more for my husband than anything, before he changed his church, he used to be sooo jealous of my morning coffee).

Yet we see evangelicals of all stripes lining up in unison to claim that they are 'saved' and one wonders aloud..."you can't all be saved if you believe different things"...That is confusion and makes no sense.

Yet they act like they are indeed one church, when they really are NOT. I don't quite agree with this one, why all the different religions out there if they all act like they are one church? Fundamentally, almost all Christian beliefs are the same, they are just interpreted differently. And if that was the case, then why does so much religious prosecution exist in the world?

There is only one Jesus Christ who presides over one church. But yet you can find reference from Jesus' own words that he presides over all that believe and ask for forgiveness...so, again, how can ANY ONE church be the ONLY church?

quote]
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:09 AM
 
4,699 posts, read 3,436,747 times
Reputation: 1641
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Classic, atheists tend to ignore or deny the value of faith.
So do you. You ignore or deny the faith of millions of Catholics and Muslims as evidence. At least the non-religious are consistent in how they value faith instead of cherry picking faith-based testimony based on how much it agrees with what they already want to believe.

Quote:
I too value scientific discovery but along with it comes frequent change to those pesky things that were considered "fact" yesterday but are no longer so today because someone discovered something even better.
Religions have this problem as well - c.f. a particular church's changing views of the role of non-whites and the validity of polygamy. But I guess changing eternal truths due to political and social pressure is a different case than changing our view of the world as we learn more about it through objective research. We just differ on which one is a better way to discover truth.

Quote:
In my opinion atheists do tend to have a lot of faith, just not faith in God.
That's nice. Too bad your opinion doesn't have any evidence in its favor.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
24,847 posts, read 31,261,547 times
Reputation: 10525
Quote:
Originally Posted by witty, wise and wicked View Post
But yet you can find reference from Jesus' own words that he presides over all that believe and ask for forgiveness...so, again, how can ANY ONE church be the ONLY church?
Actually we believe that through modern day revelation, the Lord himself has declared:

And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

Doctrine & Covenants 1:30
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
24,847 posts, read 31,261,547 times
Reputation: 10525
The Roman Catholic Church can make a very good claim to being "The one true church"
Catholic Answers: Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth (http://www.catholic.com/library/pillar.asp - broken link)

Its the we-are-all-right crowd that really doesnt get it. There is only one Jesus Christ. Why in the world would have hundreds of churches?
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 1,925,648 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
So do you. You ignore or deny the faith of millions of Catholics and Muslims as evidence. At least the non-religious are consistent in how they value faith instead of cherry picking faith-based testimony based on how much it agrees with what they already want to believe.

Religions have this problem as well - c.f. a particular church's changing views of the role of non-whites and the validity of polygamy. But I guess changing eternal truths due to political and social pressure is a different case than changing our view of the world as we learn more about it through objective research. We just differ on which one is a better way to discover truth.

That's nice. Too bad your opinion doesn't have any evidence in its favor.
I was raised Catholic and nowhere in this thread am I knocking the beliefs of Catholics or of any other Church. I'm simply responding to criticisms about my own religious beliefs and presenting my own point of view. The faith of those millions of Catholics and Muslims is evidence acceptable to them that there is a God - why would I deny them that? Your accusation is groundless...

For the probably hundredth or more time on this board, I confess that I too just as you do appreciate the objective discoveries of science, you need not pretend that you have some kind of corner on logic and reason. It's just that for probably almost everyone in the world other than the relatively tiny number of atheists, there is more to being a human being than just having five physical senses and brain tissue that is subject to disease and destruction at any moment.

Are you claiming that your opinions about religion and God are backed by more valid "evidence" than are mine?
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:53 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 2,625,071 times
Reputation: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
In a historical context its true, Jesus left no book, of that there is no question.

He neither wrote, nor put together the bible.

We DO KNOW the EXACT origins of the bible. They are writing combined into a cohesive book by a group of thelogians and scholars LONG AFTER Jesus died. He had nothing to do with it.
That is blasphemy! -and lies!
The OT was inscribed long before Jesus Christ came, and His witnesses wrote their testimony's of Christ's Gospel beginning shortly after He ascended, and He sent the Holy Spirit to remind them of all that He had said and done, in the three and a half years that He was with them.

1. Jesus Christ is YHWH in the Person of God the Word.
As the second Person in YHWH, "God the Word", He wrote the "Scripture of Truth" in heaven, which the angel in Daniel 10:21, showed Daniel the things written therein, concerning Daniel's people from then to the end of days. Daniel 210:21 states, literally -in the Hebrew to literal English: "I will show you that which is written on the Scripture of Truth; one binds with me in these things, Michael, your prince".

So Jesus, pre-incarnate, wrote a Scripture of Truth in heaven -just like Enoch said was written in heaven for the angels [who are God's ministers to the sons of Adam], to read, and to know all that would happen concerning the sons of Adam on earth from the beginning to the end. The book of Jubilees -which the "righteous Jews" believed was Scripture at the time Jesus was on earth in His flesh of second creation- speaks much of the "tablets written in heaven", as other ancient writings known to the Jews do, also. Enoch forst wrote of those tablets of Scripture in heaven, which he saw, and Daniel 10:21 corroborates with that.

2. As YHWH in the Person of God the Word, pre-incarnate, Jesus inscribed by fire [laser?], the Ten Commandments on stone tablets, twice, for Moses to present to the namesake people.

3 Because YHWH in the Person of God the Word, who alone is YHWH of the OT [ISaiah 6: John 12:37-41] who spoke to the prophets and commanded them to write "thus saith YHWH", and who commanded Moses to write , as His [YHWH's] own "scribe", the five books [Genesis -Deuteronomy]: then it is blasphemy to claim that Jesus wrote "no books".

His scribes, the prophets of old, inscribed His Word; and the last testimony of His Word is recorded at His command by His "elected witnesses" who were with Him for three and a half years, to whom He promised to send His Spirit so that they would recall all that He said and did, while He was with them.

Then, His last Word to the seed of Adam on earth is the book of His Revelation, scribed by His witness, John, at His command.
Revelation is Jesus' own book and testimony to the nations, and He gave the words to write, to John, who served as His scribe.

There is no other book written by any so called "prophet" which is from Jesus Christ to any man on earth, for "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" inscribed by John, is His last, and a curse is enjoined on any one who would add to or take away from that. It is final!

Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 01-27-2010 at 09:05 AM..
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