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How could a NDE be natural, when those who experience them will tell you, that they were viewing things from above. They were watching people from a lofty pearch, and looking down on them. What is natural about that? How would the human mind be able to give such a perspective? And the blind woman in question will tell you, she saw her wedding ring, and she was able to identify it (FROM ABOVE,) when she (SAW) the orange blossoms on the corners of it. Your statement that she did not see anything visually, is truly a depature from what she has already told us. It appears, you are simply ignoring the reality of what has been presented to you. And only because it does not fit in with your belief system. You seem to draw your own conclusions, and fully ignore what they are telling you. Why is that?
I think it is difficult for someone to come to a conclusion based on what they themselves haven't experienced. No matter what another person experienced, we'd still have to experience it ourselves in order to believe, and even then, that might not be enough. But seriously though, pictures, anyways, that's what it would take. If 10 million people say they say they saw flying reindeer, I'd be disinclined to believe them, without some hard proof or without seeing it myself.
[quote=rifleman;12947475]You're confusing me, which is quite possible. BTW, I didn't get back to you instantly because I DO have a life outside of C-D. not much of one, but sometimes I need to go get more expensive bourbon in order to withstand the onslaught agin my intelligence here!
But you did say:
"If your memristor is limited to memory functions, then I think my conclusion still stands that the subject was experiencing things that it was impossible for the brain to be aware of at the time the events were occuring."
I disagree. (my highlight in red) Impossible to achieve.
I'm still going to maintain that a truly dead brain, (not one nearly dead, or on it's way to being dead or being revived...); that is: one incapable of any more independent biochemical or electrical operation absent artificial life support system input to the greater body, is incapable of providing sensory input or output.
Of course, some here appear to ignore evidence out there that has much more validity, than a youthful drug trip. In the case of Pam Reynolds, she stated she viewed a medical saw, that was dented, and had various interchangeable blades that was used during her NDE. The doctors who performed the operation confirmed, that the medical saw, with it's various attachments were all in packages. And they stated these packages were not opened, until long after Pam was in a deep sleep with her eyes taped shut. These same doctors were totally surprised at the details Pam was able to supply about events that occured during that operation. The facts are, Pam had knowledge of things (THAT SHOULD OF BEEN IMPOSSIBLE TO ACHIEVE.) And yet, she did. What's amazing to me, is those here who don't believe any of this, oppose it's reality, not based on evidence presented, but rather evidence they invent themselves. And they do this, by simply trying to restate, change, or reinterpret what these people have so clearly stated. They dismiss these facts, to protect their bias.
I think it is difficult for someone to come to a conclusion based on what they themselves haven't experienced. No matter what another person experienced, we'd still have to experience it ourselves in order to believe, and even then, that might not be enough. But seriously though, pictures, anyways, that's what it would take. If 10 million people say they say they saw flying reindeer, I'd be disinclined to believe them, without some hard proof or without seeing it myself.
Well, based on those who were invloved with the Pam Reynolds case. There is enought supporting evidence to suggest that more than one person could relate to her experience.
I gather some of you believe all there is to know about the functioning of the brain is known....that scientists still studying it are wasting their time.
There is a good reason this is called near death experience rather than an experience of the dead.
Because these people are not dead their brains can reasonably assumed to still be functioning, just not at the level which the current instrumentation used can measure.
Your arguments are specious. Your are only believing the parts of this phenomenon that you want to believe and as if researchers don't discover new things 'every day'
Well, based on those who were invloved with the Pam Reynolds case. There is enought supporting evidence to suggest that more than one person could relate to her experience.
THE PAM REYNOLDS NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCE (http://www.aspsi.org/feat/life_after/tymn/PAM_REYNOLDS.htm - broken link)
I looked over those sites. I still think her experience can at least partly be explained by her normally hearing things. Ndes(really medical trauma induced out of body experiences) are an interesting area of human experience, that I see at least partially being explained by a better working model of the brain. No matter what is really happening, the brain is still in some way involved. I really don't know how well those ear things block out sound, but I'm pretty sure someone could hear the sound of a drill, even with earplugs in their ears. I'm not denying people have "experiences" or see strange things, but it is difficult to conclude how her experiences relate to physical reality and her brain. When she is said to be looking over her body, she would still have to be seeing with some kind of visual apparutus, if she really is seeing. In dreaming, when you dream, you then wake up, and unless you make an effort to remember what you were dreaming, your dream for the most part ends up forgotten. The brain states you normally experience are due to the biochemicals normally active in the brain, which inhibit certain activity and promote other activity. I've experienced local anesthesia before and found that even experiencing such, I still felt things quite well, and paying attention to any sensations makes them all the more noticable. Plus the equipment that is supposed to measure her brain activity isn't all that precise. It only measures large-scale high amplitude brain activity and is not sensitive enough to know for certain her brain activity completely stopped. Her eegs aren't exactly accompanied by any of the other brain scanning technologies, like mris, catscans, etc., partly for practical reasons, but still. I find her eeg measurements during surgery, being minimal to 0, inconclusive. There are drugs you can take which can slow down your heart rate and general metabolism to the point it can fool doctors into thinking you are dead. There are many people who were formally considered to be in a persistant vegetative state, but are now being found to be conscious of their world around them, locked-in syndrome, even though incapable of actually moving their body, and often having minimal brain activity.
I found her I saw my relatives comment and the conversation I had with them a bit too hallmark/commercialized. And the reference to the breath of God is reminiscent of the genesis creation story, where God breathes life into Adam. It just seems to me like she is an opportunist, looking for some extra publicity to help her in her art/music/book career. As far as the stuff said to be collaborated by her doctor, I don't know to what degree and in what way it was collaborated or how much detail, she actually remembered. It seems mostly like a collection of a few salient experiences, one being the drill going into her head, which was likely a very painful experience, such that anyone would likely dissociate themselves from it, and if not painful, at least noticable. Plus had she done any research on her surgery beforehand, she would have known a lot of the likely events to take place.
I just need something more to do on than a nice story of family and lights, though quite familar, and a few salient points like hearing people talking, sound of drill, and noticing a drill going into her head. The brain doesn't need to be showing any significant brain activity to be gathering memories in a passive receptive way.
...And since the only evidence for documented "NDE" experiences outside the body are testimonials from live people, how can we state they ever came from a dead person? Dead is dead. Not-quite dead is not dead. but the strain of such conditions will generate a lot of unusual biochemistry, I'm betting.
So what you're saying then is that someone medical doctors consider to be clinically dead with their eyes taped shut and plugs in their ears can still hear through their physical ears, see through their physical eyes, and process and remember information with their flat lined brain? (Dent in saw they couldn't have seen, conversations they couldn't have heard, etc. etc. etc.)
But ok, that's how you see it, you have the right to believe whatever you will. But to me your conclusions seem to be illogical and unreasonable and most likely based on a great deal of faith in a favored unproven theory.
Of course, some here appear to ignore evidence out there that has much more validity, than a youthful drug trip.
Utter nonsense and twisting things to suit your own narrow view as usual. The point is that NDEs are NOT the ONLY way to generate so-called "out-of-body" experiences.
Last edited by NightBazaar; 02-18-2010 at 10:22 AM..
I looked over those sites. I still think her experience can at least partly be explained by her normally hearing things. Ndes(really medical trauma induced out of body experiences) are an interesting area of human experience, that I see at least partially being explained by a better working model of the brain. No matter what is really happening, the brain is still in some way involved. I really don't know how well those ear things block out sound, but I'm pretty sure someone could hear the sound of a drill, even with earplugs in their ears. I'm not denying people have "experiences" or see strange things, but it is difficult to conclude how her experiences relate to physical reality and her brain. When she is said to be looking over her body, she would still have to be seeing with some kind of visual apparutus, if she really is seeing. In dreaming, when you dream, you then wake up, and unless you make an effort to remember what you were dreaming, your dream for the most part ends up forgotten. The brain states you normally experience are due to the biochemicals normally active in the brain, which inhibit certain activity and promote other activity. I've experienced local anesthesia before and found that even experiencing such, I still felt things quite well, and paying attention to any sensations makes them all the more noticable. Plus the equipment that is supposed to measure her brain activity isn't all that precise. It only measures large-scale high amplitude brain activity and is not sensitive enough to know for certain her brain activity completely stopped. Her eegs aren't exactly accompanied by any of the other brain scanning technologies, like mris, catscans, etc., partly for practical reasons, but still. I find her eeg measurements during surgery, being minimal to 0, inconclusive. There are drugs you can take which can slow down your heart rate and general metabolism to the point it can fool doctors into thinking you are dead. There are many people who were formally considered to be in a persistant vegetative state, but are now being found to be conscious of their world around them, locked-in syndrome, even though incapable of actually moving their body, and often having minimal brain activity.
I found her I saw my relatives comment and the conversation I had with them a bit too hallmark/commercialized. And the reference to the breath of God is reminiscent of the genesis creation story, where God breathes life into Adam. It just seems to me like she is an opportunist, looking for some extra publicity to help her in her art/music/book career. As far as the stuff said to be collaborated by her doctor, I don't know to what degree and in what way it was collaborated or how much detail, she actually remembered. It seems mostly like a collection of a few salient experiences, one being the drill going into her head, which was likely a very painful experience, such that anyone would likely dissociate themselves from it, and if not painful, at least noticable. Plus had she done any research on her surgery beforehand, she would have known a lot of the likely events to take place.
I just need something more to do on than a nice story of family and lights, though quite familar, and a few salient points like hearing people talking, sound of drill, and noticing a drill going into her head. The brain doesn't need to be showing any significant brain activity to be gathering memories in a passive receptive way.
Yet, in the case I presented here. This womans heart and lungs, (were stopped for one hour). Her head drained of all blood. Her eyes taped shut. And the saw used to cut into her head, was not removed from the package, until she was stated to be physically dead. This was confirmed by the doctors present. Yet after the operation, she was able to describe this medical saw in detail. Even to the point of describing a dent she viewed in the saw itself, along with other attachments used with the saw. Also, she spoke of other numerous details that occured during the operation. Even if you want to believe the brain was involved. There's really no possible way to explain how this woman could have watch the operation from a lofty position, viewing all that occured from above. Nor could use of her human brain, explain how she could see the (VISUAL DETAILS) of what occured. Now you say she is an opportunist? Yet the doctors themselves, are the ones confirming many details of her account. So are we now to assume the doctors are opportunist as well? It appears to me, your ignoring the details of what occured, and pretending that the only thing that was happening, was the gathering of memories. Yet, how could such memories be gathered, when that would be physically impossible? How could she (view) anything, with her eyes taped shut, her heart and lungs stopped. And her brain wave activity, nolonger present?
Not what I said, justamere. Try to get it right, and don't replace my ideas with yours just for dramatic effect.
First, I'll challenge her story on the basis of some of the obvious problems with it and with the OP's assumptions (also duly noted by JustNobody) that she may well be taking advantage of an opportunity to make a name for themselves. People do that you know. Just look at Reality TV: kids supposedly adrift in balloons, people claiming to be abducted, but then the family comes forward and says that "mom was actually visiting gramma that weekend!".
You only have her word on all of this, no empirical evidence, especially when it's so implausible.
As regards all the religiously oriented wonder stories, it's obvious that folks want to support their chosen spiritual paradigm. Thus we have wonderous salvations, healings and events that supposedly prove God's love and power. But they are never well or properly documented, or are severely doctored (or wildly out-of-focus, which is odd, given the auto-focus settings on all video cameras...) videos, or the person saved has soobviously been coached.
Or, as in the case of the fabled man-over-dino foootprints, the grandkid comes forward and proves that grampa carved them a few yers before trying to sll them, and had 'em buried out in thd barn for "authenticity"!
Conspiracies, which such things are by definition, always have a way of coming out. Which is why, BTW, none ever have regarding the oft-claimed world-wide conspiracy to "Prove Evolution when it's just a fantasy!".
So now that part's always swept hurriedly under the rug by the enthusiastic myth supporters. It's odd that they (you) never even try to appear skeptical, even for the most absurd presentations. I've said many times to Tom; he just accepts it all with nary a blink of his eye. I could sell him anything, apparently, if I painted cross on it!
Any wonder we're now generally skeptical of the absurd and implausible? Aren't you yourself EVER skeptical? Of anything besides Evolution?
__________________________________________________ _
Here's a strong philosophical statement on my part that I apply to most everything. You and Tom (C34) apparently and demonstrably, not so much:
"Highly implausible happenings or claims need extra-ordinary, highly plausible and soundly believable evidence."
Reproduceability on such events helps a lot, but there's even The Journal of Irreproduceable Results" in science!
We do know some things are hard to replicate. But given that there's never been an incontrovertible or measurable NDE experience, and all the claimants are still alive, what ARE we to conclude?
I'm sticking to the fact that there is no such thing as a NDE. Since we'll all die eventually, and I"m possibly nearer to it than you if I'm older or sicker, then all my experiences today could be labelled NDEs, right? The claimant was either dead (and thus cannot come back) or was not (and either imagined some things, or saw a golden commercial opportunity.).
Simple, huh? And it sifts through the Bull Excretia quite efficiently.
...You only have her word on all of this, no empirical evidence, especially when it's so implausible. Any wonder we're now generally skeptical of the absurd and implausible? Aren't you yourself EVER skeptical? Of anything besides Evolution?
We do know some things are hard to replicate. But given that there's never been an incontrovertible or measurable NDE experience, and all the claimants are still alive, what ARE we to conclude?
I'm sticking to the fact that there is no such thing as a NDE. Since we'll all die eventually, and I"m possibly nearer to it than you if I'm older or sicker, then all my experiences today could be labelled NDEs, right? The claimant was either dead (and thus cannot come back) or was not (and either imagined some things, or saw a golden commercial opportunity.) Simple, huh? And it sifts through the Bull Excretia quite efficiently.
Actually, I don't have a problem with evolution within a species and there's no official position on the evolution controversy in the church I am a member of. And your other 'points' have nothing to do with NDE's, just your general disdain for people who do not believe as you do.
You say there is no such thing as an NDE and no "empirical evidence" available, but I think you are quite wrong on that as the attending physicians have stated. (How could the blindfolded and ear plugged subject in the current case describe the instruments that were hidden when she arrived even to the point of seeing a dent in one of them? Or do you think the doctors lied as well as her?)
But ok, I'm not interested enough to read through the 2,000 or so cases cited on the website referred to earlier:
I guess it's just another round of the ancient game of 'my expert's bigger than your expert' and we'll all continue to pick and choose the expert who favors what we want to believe.
Maybe someone who's more informed about NDEs than I am will post a few more NDE cases where scientists and medical doctors with first hand experience would disagree strongly with your "no NDE, no evidence" view.
But then, it probably doesn't matter anyway, regardless of the evidence you'll continue to believe (and perhaps hope) that awareness ends with the death of brain tissue, and I'll continue to believe that I am a child of God with an immortal soul, and Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind.
Personally I think the case has already been scientifically made and it may not be long before you're going to have to admit that life continues beyond the death of ever so fragile brain tissue, or give up the notion that you stand on the side of logic and reason. (Just my point of view, not meant to offend you.)
------ Penny Sartori, PhDThis is a 5 year prospective Welsh study out of the UK to explore if anoxia, hypercarbia or drug administration could explain the NDE. The conclusion of the study is that the NDE still remains medically inexplicable.... much more:
Last edited by justamere10; 02-18-2010 at 01:42 PM..
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