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katzpur: hey! thanks for the rep. well, i am a programming grad and am a catholic so...
to the OP and other atheists: well don't worry you will NEVER ever be able to see our God... even in death. well, at least i hope so. Coz if i were God, i won't waste my time to my detractors.. i mean i have a universe to run here. You are not MY only creations.
also, what's the point of God showing HIMself to you in death? you AND you alone have already decided your destiny. so what, HE'll show HIMself to you just to do this.... , na-uhh that's not how God rolls.
just wanna add on my flowchart post...
in case the flow chart is hard to follow or too complex, imagine God's flow chart in the universe HE created and ALL the living things and planets and all that jazz... imagine that.
The flow chart is probably made to solve problems and to prevent similar problems. The flow chart is to prevent any major disasters from rendering the system inefficient. Am I correct?
When a problem in the computer systems develops do you..
-ignore it, pretend it doesn't exist?
-tell those hooked up to the system to just keep on working as best they can and not to complain?
ahhh. nice try but no. when i refer to the flow chart i dont mean for you to LITERALLY explain it. i am just saying for you to imagine how GOD designed HIS universe and everything in it. if u can't understand the flowchart above what more God's design that is waaay too complex even i can't understand.
but this flowchart i can understand, i actually just read it just now. the flow chart is what for e.g HP and other PC brands uses their after sales customer service. i use their customer service site a lot lately so i can totally understand the flowchart. it basically starts with me, the customer, who go on their site and try to communicate my prob by phone, email or chat. a rep will address my concern and try to solve it on the spot if he can, if he can not then i will be given a ticket number and the ticket number will be forwarded to the next department as clearly shown on the left side of the flowchart and so on and so forth until the customer's problem is resolved. it does not have anything to do with major disasters from rendering the system inefficient. and i dont even think there was an indication on the chart to:
-ignore it, pretend it doesn't exist?
-tell those hooked up to the system to just keep on working as best they can and not to complain?
so this is the flow chart of the help desk system. interesting.
Why do you think there would be no other choice if god didn't allow for evil? Of course good can exist without evil. You can either choose to do good or choose not to do good. Choosing not to do good does not equate with being "evil". Heck, most of our day to day lives are filled with neutral, non-good, non-evil behavior: watching TV, going to work, eating a hamburger, etc. When we go out of our way to do something good (help a little old lady across the street, pay someone a compliment, run an errand for someone), then we are making the choice to do good over not doing anything. If I had just walked by the little old lady, did not compliment someone, and did not run an errand for someone, then I am not thereby doing "evil." You are still able to do good without having the choice to do evil. I don't have to have the ability to choose to kill the little old lady in order to make the choice to do good and help her across the street. Why does your god allow this unnecessary evil?
When we choose not to help someone in need, we're doing evil in my opinion. Of course there are different degrees of good and evil, and I don't think that by not helping the little old lady you'd be in the same category as the guy who intentionally runs her down with his car. Still, I still fail to see how it's possible to do good if there is no choice to do otherwise. Sure, most of our day to day activities don't involve any monumentous good versus evil decisions, but the sum total of our lives does the choices we make that lead us in one direction or another. And you've got to admit that you've always got the choice as to whether to be honest or dishonest, courteous or rude, etc.
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What are you suggesting here? That we will meet god and have a chance at heaven without ever having had believed in him?
Not quite, but I do believe the chance to believe will extend beyond the grave. After all, we're not going to be resurrected for a very long time. I believe we will continue to exist in a spirit state after we die and will continue to be able to learn and grow and make decisions -- without all of the baggage we're encumbered with in this life (i.e. our cultures, backgrounds, educations, etc.)
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Doesn't this contradict the bible where it says:
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
I see what you're saying and I'm pretty sure that most Christians would agree with you. I'd just argue that these verses don't say when we need to start believing.
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If I meet god after death, then I would know he exists. I would not need to believe he exists, which seems to be one of god's criteria for acceptance.
True, and I don't think you're going to get the chance to actually meet Him until you stand before Him to be judged. I'm just saying that I believe that after you die, you'll find yourself in a different realm than you are here and now, and that you could conceivably have second thoughts. If you're an atheist, the fact that you still "exist" ought to be enough to get you to start thinking it over.
I see neither a conundrum nor any oxymora in the original post, since it was written with the implied stipulation that god existed which is obviously contrary to the OP's personal position.
Plus it is more concisely and clearly written.
It wasn't obvious to me that the person who wrote the OP believes that god doesn't exist- quite the contrary. But if there was sarcasm there and I didn't catch it then, in that case I digress- that does change things a bit for sure. You never know on here- there have been way too many times I've mistaken about whether or not people have been using sarcasm to get their point across, as well as been sure someone was kidding about something (especially some of the zealots with their extreme beliefs about satan and all their bible talk etc.) only to find out they were dead serious...
Wow,if you wonder why he has not made himself. Known in your life its because you havenlt allowed him to do so. He is not going to force you to call on his name. If you are sincere on finding out if he is real,than I challenge you to call out to him, but than again your not a believer so you probably wouldn't recognize when he answered back. You have to believe in something or you will fall for anything. When life starts whooping up on youlets see who you call on for mercy.
Wow,if you wonder why he has not made himself. Known in your life its because you havenlt allowed him to do so. He is not going to force you to call on his name. If you are sincere on finding out if he is real,than I challenge you to call out to him, but than again your not a believer so you probably wouldn't recognize when he answered back. You have to believe in something or you will fall for anything. When life starts whooping up on youlets see who you call on for mercy.
which God? can you specify? you DO know that there are thousands of Gods known to man...right?
Which god, you ask?!? You clearly know already that there are many gods so I'm surprised you don't know more about each one to where you'd be able to identify exactly which god we were talking about....or perhaps you didn't read the OP which mentions jesus, Noah, Adam & Eve, sin, etc.. Far as I know only the christian god umbrellas such words and concepts so I didn't think I had to specify which god we were talking about.
Which god, you ask?!? You clearly know already that there are many gods so I'm surprised you don't know more about each one to where you'd be able to identify exactly which god we were talking about....or perhaps you didn't read the OP which mentions jesus, Noah, Adam & Eve, sin, etc.. Far as I know only the christian god umbrellas such words and concepts so I didn't think I had to specify which god we were talking about.
just the fact that there are thousands of Gods, should tell you something.
Moderator cut: insult
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-17-2010 at 01:16 PM..
Did it ever occur to you, that nothing ever occured to God?
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, na-uhh that's not how God rolls.
God
