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Old 03-21-2010, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,849,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
What a saved person loathes is his sin, not himself.
I see it as the same thing.
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Old 03-21-2010, 09:17 AM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,566,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
you guys have to continuously push that guilt-laden perspective.
Who is 'you guys'? Who is pushing anything? You can say "Pish tush to the lot of it," and nobody will care. Jesus came for sinners, not the righteous.

Quote:
Go next door, would'jah?
People can do that if they can't take reasoned defense of legitimate positions. If they feel guilty, though, there's nothing can be done.
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Old 03-21-2010, 09:18 AM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,566,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
I see it as the same thing.
Then maybe there's no hope for you.
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Old 03-21-2010, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,849,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
Then maybe there's no hope for you.
Presumably that would be because I don't subscribe to your particular belief?
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Old 03-21-2010, 09:28 AM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,566,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Presumably that would be because I don't subscribe to your particular belief?
Because you don't know the difference between sin and sinner. You're unique, afaik.
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,521 posts, read 37,121,123 times
Reputation: 13998
Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
Because you don't know the difference between sin and sinner. You're unique, afaik.
As far as I'm concerned sin does not exist except in the minds of the religious. If you want to see yourself as some worthless sinner, that's your prerogative. As for myself, I see myself as an honest, decent caring person...If I do wrong I correct it and move on.

What do you suppose it does to the self image of children when they are programed with this kind of garbage? A good self image is vital to success in our relationships, and life in general.

You say Jesus did not come to save the righteous, but to save the wrong doers.....What kind of whack-a-loon theory is that?
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:23 AM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,566,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
As far as I'm concerned sin does not exist except in the minds of the religious.
Then why are you here?

Quote:
If you want to see yourself as some worthless sinner, that's your prerogative.
Does anyone apart from Rafius do that?

Quote:
As for myself, I see myself as an honest, decent caring person.
Jolly good. Adolf Hitler took a similar position. So if an infamous man can think himself ok, what about an ordinary one?

Last edited by shibata; 03-21-2010 at 11:47 AM..
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 12,911,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
People can do that if they can't take reasoned defense of legitimate positions. If they feel guilty, though, there's nothing can be done.
And if we don't feel guilty? Of anything? I mean, I accept the basic behavior and failings of all mankind, and I don't try to pigeon-hole each aspect of it as in:

"Yep; that one's a sin. Nope, that one doesn't count. Yep, that one does. Says so right here!"

Religion creates formulaic responses to as many of life's situations as dogmo-theism can concoct and then label. It does not allow for basic human behavior. At least, not without guilt.

Well... sorry. No sale. I'd rather live a guilt free happy existence absent the hair-tearing and life-long self-criticism. Because, essentially, I'm a good, caring, nice guy. And proud of it! No evil intents. (Well, with the possible exception of my feelings towards the IRS and socialist governments. Socialist governments, like organized religion, want you to conform to what "they know is best").

No intrinsic sinning going on here, despite what the bible wants (needs) me to believe. After all, if we're all guilt- and sin-free, what purpose is there for organized religion? It'd become the answer to a question no-one had asked!

I occasionally attend my wife's church, the "senior" service. They all supplicate and rote-chant before their chosen iconic God, with literally decades of practice and faith built in, no questions to be asked. They also feel oh-so-much better afterward as they sip coffee together and gossip.

In fact I'd suggest they definitely feel "holier-than-thou" towards the "sinners" who didn't have the good fortune to have attended with them. Such an institutionalized and charmingly patronizing attitude is common amongst the churchy set. It doesn't wear well on them though.

BTW, this does not in any way diminish the obvious good that Church does; the question is, though, could such community good and group morale be achieved simply by logic and common sense? Do we need a Godly centerpiece to achieve community goals?
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,521 posts, read 37,121,123 times
Reputation: 13998
Quote:
Originally Posted by baket View Post
if there is no God as you believe though, why do you despise the God of the believers? when you see verifiable sufferings and sacrifices by our fellow men especially children. you do the nasty on the God that you don't believe? i told you why Jesus' own suffering is VITAL to our faith and for me, explain why some misfortune happen even to good people, and yes even for no reason at all. what is the reason again why Jesus was prosecuted by the Jews?
First of all let me teach you a bit about the religion you follow....#1..Jesus ( if he existed) WAS a Jew. #2 ...The Christian religion was not invented until long after Christ's death.
Quote:
in fact, if you believe in a Godless society what then do you think is the reason why people suffer? removing God in the equation, as you don't believe He exists. why do people suffer and in most cases, by the hands of people they love/trust? please explain, according to your belief that there is no God/good and devil/evil. if there is no God, why do we even have to die?
S**t happens, suffering and pain is a natural part of life and every organism eventually dies. Just be happy you have a long life and try to do something positive with it....You could have been born a mouse.....eek.
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:35 AM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,566,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
And if we don't feel guilty? Of anything?
Then go fishing! Eat, drink and be merry!
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