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Just a question for those for and against the separation. How far do you think it needs to go? What about things that have been, such as a cross, in the same spot for 100 years? Does it just now offend someone and has not in the last 100 years, or do you think its becasue there is more of a "push" if you will for more separation? IMHO, for me, I wouldnt be against not putting anything new up, such as crosses, ten commandments, but what I do wonder about, is why are the freedoms we have had in the past now come under fire?
No posting of religious symbols in public areas (parks, courthouses, etc) unless there are clearly defined rules that are accessible to all religions. One example of this would be the postage stamp thread. Since all religions can have a holiday themed stamp, that is ok, but it seems limited to holidays, not symbols.
Religious orgs should be tax exempt.
Religious orgs should have to play by the same rules/regulations for labor and public safety as public orgs. Did you know that currently in NY city (and maybe elsewhere) secular daycares must abide by a number of rules limiting overcrowding, but religious daycares can cram kids into closets?
Marriage should be abolished from the secular sphere. Only churches should be allowed to perform marriages, under whatever rules they want, although it will have no legal standing. Instead, civil unions will be performed only by judges, JotP, etc, and be the only thing that has any legal recognization. Basically meaning that if you want to marry somebody, and have legal rights, you need to do both.
For the example you have above, where religious icons currently exist in public spaces, they should be removed. Although I would think it fair that if a church wanted to purchase the public spaced for fair market value, they could do so and keep the cross. This may be prohibitively expensive, but fair.
No prayer in schools, no prayer at public meetings. This is coercive. If you want to pray on your own before or after, go right ahead.
Schools should have NOTHING to say about whether a kid brings a bible to school, or hands out hannukah cards, or whatever. The teacher should not do it, the principal should not do it, but if a kid wants to, go right ahead. If it becomes disruptive, that gets dealt with in a disciplinary manner.
No posting of religious symbols in public areas (parks, courthouses, etc) unless there are clearly defined rules that are accessible to all religions. One example of this would be the postage stamp thread. Since all religions can have a holiday themed stamp, that is ok, but it seems limited to holidays, not symbols.
Religious orgs should be tax exempt.
Religious orgs should have to play by the same rules/regulations for labor and public safety as public orgs. Did you know that currently in NY city (and maybe elsewhere) secular daycares must abide by a number of rules limiting overcrowding, but religious daycares can cram kids into closets?
Marriage should be abolished from the secular sphere. Only churches should be allowed to perform marriages, under whatever rules they want, although it will have no legal standing. Instead, civil unions will be performed only by judges, JotP, etc, and be the only thing that has any legal recognization. Basically meaning that if you want to marry somebody, and have legal rights, you need to do both.
For the example you have above, where religious icons currently exist in public spaces, they should be removed. Although I would think it fair that if a church wanted to purchase the public spaced for fair market value, they could do so and keep the cross. This may be prohibitively expensive, but fair.
No prayer in schools, no prayer at public meetings. This is coercive. If you want to pray on your own before or after, go right ahead.
Schools should have NOTHING to say about whether a kid brings a bible to school, or hands out hannukah cards, or whatever. The teacher should not do it, the principal should not do it, but if a kid wants to, go right ahead. If it becomes disruptive, that gets dealt with in a disciplinary manner.
How is that for some stuff to debate?
Good-lol plenty to debate. Okay, the religous symbols that are already in place, and have been for years, whats wrong with those, IYO?
Good-lol plenty to debate. Okay, the religous symbols that are already in place, and have been for years, whats wrong with those, IYO?
I can focus.
First, we live in a republic, not a theocracy. There is freedom for people to practice any religion they like.
Putting the 10 commandments in a courthouse implies that your court case will be judged upon the 10Cs rather than state/federal law. This is an unfair burden upon lawyers and citizens.
As for crosses in public parks? There is ongoing maintenance that must be done, and this will cost the city money for mowing, or painting, or whatever. It also implies that the city/state/feds endorse that religion, which simply is not correct. If you want to allow all religions equal access, that would be ok, but also tough to handle. Lets say you have a cross in a park. Some jewish org want to put up a menorah. Then an islamic group wants to put up a minaret or something. I come along and want to put up a pirate flag and a bowl of spaghetti that must be cooked fresh every day. Where does it stop?
So that is my argument. Age does not imply that things are correct, it simply means that have been done that way before. If that is wrong, it should be corrected now.
posted by stretch..Schools should have NOTHING to say about whether a kid brings a bible to school, or hands out hannukah cards, or whatever. The teacher should not do it, the principal should not do it, but if a kid wants to, go right ahead. If it becomes disruptive, that gets dealt with in a disciplinary manner.
Im gonna agree with you on this one about bibles and whatever. Let me ask the question, what started the need for removal of said religous items? Because it is right now a hot issue item with the ACLU, people for american way, vs. acju, and others. I read yesterday that the air force was under scrutiny for doing a flyby over an event held by a Christian group, or sponsered by it.
What cross are you referring to that is on government property and has been up for 100 years? I am not familiar with this case. I guess it might depend on when the cross was erected and for what purpose.
But in general, I don't want my government supporting or endorsing any particular religion over another, or even religion in general over non-religion. Certain things I might accept as historical landmarks, but many of the things that I object to have been added within my parents' lifetime. For example, I would change the wording of "under God" in the pledge, added in the 1950's, but I would not change the words of The Star-Spangled Banner, written in 1814.
Bibles and religion in school are tricky. Legislating what people can and cannot do will always result in some people working loopholes in order to circumvent the spirit of the law by following the letter in a weird way.
Now, let me say that I do not limit my thoughts to bibles. Bring a koran if you like. Buddhist prayer beads. Whatever.
But you must do it on your own time, in a non-disruptive way. Pray in the playground if you like. But if you stand on the top of the swingset and cry out "Repent or be damned", that becomes a disciplinary action in the same way that standing up there and saying "redheads are all sexually promiscuous" is a disciplinary problem.
Same thing with student led prayer. If you and your buddy want to recite bible versus during recess, go for it. If you and your buddy walk to the principals office during morning announcements and ask to use the PA system to recite the lords prayer, that is bad.
Same thing at football games. Go watch the game and cheer. But if you and your bible group run out to the field at half time and start to preach, that is disturbing the peace in the same way that 6 frat guys streaking is disturbing the peace.
So I think that these are the areas in which it is tricky, and we are trying to solve this legislatively. There is currently a whole lot of latitude for student religious expression, but many people, on both sides, are simply unsure of the boundaries. I include myself in this. Th
What cross are you referring to that is on government property and has been up for 100 years? I am not familiar with this case. I guess it might depend on when the cross was erected and for what purpose.
But in general, I don't want my government supporting or endorsing any particular religion over another, or even religion in general over non-religion. Certain things I might accept as historical landmarks, but many of the things that I object to have been added within my parents' lifetime. For example, I would change the wording of "under God" in the pledge, added in the 1950's, but I would not change the words of The Star-Spangled Banner, written in 1814.
Just using the Cross as a discussion base, not as a fact, but some items have been in place for a long time. Sorry for the confusion on that.
No posting of religious symbols in public areas (parks, courthouses, etc) unless there are clearly defined rules that are accessible to all religions. One example of this would be the postage stamp thread. Since all religions can have a holiday themed stamp, that is ok, but it seems limited to holidays, not symbols.
Religious orgs should be tax exempt.
Religious orgs should have to play by the same rules/regulations for labor and public safety as public orgs. Did you know that currently in NY city (and maybe elsewhere) secular daycares must abide by a number of rules limiting overcrowding, but religious daycares can cram kids into closets?
Marriage should be abolished from the secular sphere. Only churches should be allowed to perform marriages, under whatever rules they want, although it will have no legal standing. Instead, civil unions will be performed only by judges, JotP, etc, and be the only thing that has any legal recognization. Basically meaning that if you want to marry somebody, and have legal rights, you need to do both.
For the example you have above, where religious icons currently exist in public spaces, they should be removed. Although I would think it fair that if a church wanted to purchase the public spaced for fair market value, they could do so and keep the cross. This may be prohibitively expensive, but fair.
No prayer in schools, no prayer at public meetings. This is coercive. If you want to pray on your own before or after, go right ahead.
Schools should have NOTHING to say about whether a kid brings a bible to school, or hands out hannukah cards, or whatever. The teacher should not do it, the principal should not do it, but if a kid wants to, go right ahead. If it becomes disruptive, that gets dealt with in a disciplinary manner.
How is that for some stuff to debate?
I completely agree on all counts, but I must spread some more reputation around before giving to stretch again!
Good-lol plenty to debate. Okay, the religous symbols that are already in place, and have been for years, whats wrong with those, IYO?
Slavery, segregation and the lack of women's right's were in place for years too. But that doesn't make it right either.
Now before someone says you're compairing apples to oranges, I'm not.
The aforementioned were deemed wrong and corrected. If I'm paying with my tax dollars for the upkeep and maintenance of a cross, or if the 10 commandments in a courthouse endorses a religion, then that is a clear violation of church and state, and should be considered wrong and corrected.
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