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View Poll Results: Were Adam & Eve created (before the fall) as physically mortal or immortal beings?
Mortal 15 75.00%
Immortal 5 25.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-28-2010, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Southern California
1,839 posts, read 1,724,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezlie View Post
I did watch your video and I thought you did a good job. But where did you ever get that idea? I don't think it was due to a case of their ego pushing them over the top to want to be as God. God did not create them that way..... according to the tale. They were very innocent and docile and asexual. See linky.

http://themasterstable.files.wordpre...am-and-eve.jpg
Thanks... it was a labor of Divine Love.

All of the information in my video came straight from them... sorry, but yours is the fairy tale.

From Adam (Aman): Celestial Vision Productions

From Eve (Amon): Celestial Vision Productions
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Old 11-12-2010, 04:45 PM
 
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The responses so far seem to raise a question, based on certain assumptions.

1. A&E were created as mortal beings. Otherwise, there was no role for the Tree of Life to play, except at the very end--when guards were posted. One wonders why A&E didn't taste the fruit of the tree of life before Eve met the snake, unless God simply didn't make them aware of the tree of life and its possibilities. There was no prohibition.

2. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it turns out, was the tree of death. Well, if they were created as mortal beings, what purpose would be served by telling them not to eat or touch the tree of death, unless it was simply a test of their obedience.

3. The, of course, all this raises another question. What did A&E know or understand about good and evil, about death, since they had never experienced these things.

4. And the Serpent. He was crated by God and God said all his creation was "good." So why would Eve have any reason not to trust what the Serpent said? He never really lied to her! He said she would not die as a result of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and he was half right. Death of the flesh, perhaps; death of the immortal soul? No. And didn't God tell a half truith, as well? He said she would surely diek--in the flesh, yess; but not of the spirit (if we are to believe that man was created with an immortal soul).

The serpent said that if she ate of the tree's fruit, she would become as god, knowing good and evil. And that was true. So where is the lie?

The Story of Cration is frought with many complications. It creates a situation where the story has many blank areas of uncertainty. Fortunately, there has been no want of individuals--from laypersons to priests--who have been inspired to fill in the blank spots with their own interpretations. That's the marvelous thing--individuals can change what's in the blank spots to fit the times.
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Old 11-12-2010, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Not.here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalAngel2009 View Post
Where do you get the idea they were asexual... that's totally bunk and misinformation. Adam was a man and Eve was a woman.

SoCalAngel, By asexual I meant that they were not sexually active lovers before they took a bite of the fruit. They lived in the garden where all their needs were met by God except the need to engage in a sexual relation. Why? Because the thought of procreating was not in the plans at that point in time. That would have negated the intent of the whole act of disobedience. Only by listening to the serpent and taking the bite, did they become as humans and then go on to eventually have sex and bear future offspring. Yes, if they had not listened to the serpent you and I might not be here today, and they would still be wandering around blissfully in the garden, with under-active levels of estrogen and testosterone.
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Old 11-12-2010, 07:41 PM
 
35,606 posts, read 9,266,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezlie View Post
SoCalAngel, By asexual I meant that they were not sexually active lovers before they took a bite of the fruit. They lived in the garden where all their needs were met by God except the need to engage in a sexual relation. Why? Because the thought of procreating was not in the plans at that point in time. That would have negated the intent of the whole act of disobedience. Only by listening to the serpent and taking the bite, did they become as humans and then go on to eventually have sex and bear future offspring. Yes, if they had not listened to the serpent you and I might not be here today, and they would still be wandering around blissfully in the garden, with under-active levels of estrogen and testosterone.
It was already pointed out to you that they were told to be fruitful, muliply and fill the earth. You won't do that being asexual. Procreation was all part of the plan. The only difference after the fall was they were ashamed of it.

Yep. The only result of the fall was those feelings of prurience and decency which are so important to the faithful. I don't see that sex being involved in the fall, disobedience and sin stacks up at all. I also don't buy that they got 'death' as a punishment for disobedience. Animals all die and they didn't disobey.

What they appear to have got from from the tree was loss of innocence that kids have when they don't think about being unclothed and can't see that it matters. It is their elders teaching them shame who are perpetuating the sin of the Fall. How you like that?
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Old 11-13-2010, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,057 posts, read 29,884,557 times
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According to the story (or call it the mythology if you like), Adam was originally intended to live to 1,000. But seventy years were taken to give to the soul that would become King David.

I'm not saying this is meant to be taken literally (although David did die at the age of 70), but it does infer that Adam wasn't created as immortal. Quite the contrary, he was given a specific lifespan.
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Old 11-13-2010, 04:28 PM
 
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Which story is that? I couldn't find it. I did find that Adam lived to 930 (gen 5.5)
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Not.here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
It was already pointed out to you that they were told to be fruitful, muliply and fill the earth. You won't do that being asexual. Procreation was all part of the plan. The only difference after the fall was they were ashamed of it.

Yep. The only result of the fall was those feelings of prurience and decency which are so important to the faithful. I don't see that sex being involved in the fall, disobedience and sin stacks up at all. I also don't buy that they got 'death' as a punishment for disobedience. Animals all die and they didn't disobey.

What they appear to have got from from the tree was loss of innocence that kids have when they don't think about being unclothed and can't see that it matters. It is their elders teaching them shame who are perpetuating the sin of the Fall. How you like that?
That's very true, and it takes place all over the world.

I went back and reviewed the thread and also Genesis, and have to agree that the lesson offers a metaphorical explanation about the genesis of man's ego coming into being after taking the bite. Now, man is no longer like the animals (innocent in their nakedness and operating on a more basic level that is without ego). Man becomes knowledgeable and is free to create all sorts of grandiose ideas about himself.

But I also think that it is a metaphor for becoming knowledgeable about sex. Adam & Eve became ashamed of being naked like the animals around them, not of having sex. Why would there be shame when there were no other humans around to give them a cause for feeling like that? Only humans are capable of creating that. And then the hiding begins (first by covering up with leaves), and the greater metaphorical lesson that religions and society would pick up on... that sex is something that is best kept hushed.

Of course, modern society is distancing itself from that, but the origins remain.
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Old 11-15-2010, 06:32 AM
 
35,606 posts, read 9,266,467 times
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Very good. I really appreciate someone who thinks about the implications Moderator cut: edit

I do tend to see the Eden story as an explanations of where the concept of shame came from. Given that It has no more credence for me than Pandora's box or Kipling's leopard -spots, it does raise the question of why we feel shame about being naked. It does come across to me as something that has to be taught (like theism) as there are some peoples who don't have the same taboos or not to the same extent.

I'd be inclined to point the anthopologists to an idea of female ownership. By wrapping her up the man is keeping her for himself even when she is outside.

Of course even in cultures where women go nude or bare- breasted at least, there are equally strong taboos about other mens' wives, so I may be wrong there.

Anway. Going off topic a bit. The knowledge of good and evil was exemplified by sexual self - conciousness, though I'd say it is a pretty ignorant knowledge. It follows that other kinds of knowledge were acquired at the same time.

The whole seems to be a metaphor for this Utopia idea we have with the equally ignorant Golden age view of those who feel that uncivilized life is so much better than our cluttered civilisation or that the good old days of Old Values was so much better than modern times when kids have No respect.

There is a grain of truth in it, but study of those good old days and simple societies shows that it wasn't so good as all that.

That said, the Eden section of the Biblical 'Just So' story takes on a theological element in that the act of disobedience becomes paramount rather than the effect of the disobedience in turning an Idyllic theme - park life into a tribal struggle for existence.

Last edited by june 7th; 02-17-2012 at 09:07 AM..
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Not.here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I do tend to see the Eden story as an explanations of where the concept of shame came from. Given that It has no more credence for me than Pandora's box or Kipling's leopard -spots, it does raise the question of why we feel shame about being naked. It does come across to me as something that has to be taught (like theism) as there are some peoples who don't have the same taboos or not to the same extent.
The Eden story as an explanation of where shame came from......... seems that way to me also.......... and the point about it having to be taught......... that's been my experience too. We begin life innocently, and then we are shaped like a piece of clay, this way and that way, so that we can "fit in" with our particular society.

Quote:
I'd be inclined to point the anthopologists to an idea of female ownership. By wrapping her up the man is keeping her for himself even when she is outside.
It does seems like man came to this early understanding that temptation could be lessened by hiding the curves.

Quote:

Anway. Going off topic a bit. The knowledge of good and evil was exemplified by sexual self - conciousness, though I'd say it is a pretty ignorant knowledge. It follows that other kinds of knowledge were acquired at the same time.

The whole seems to be a metaphor for this Utopia idea we have with the equally ignorant Golden age view of those who feel that uncivilized life is so much better than our cluttered civilisation or that the good old days of Old Values was so much better than modern times when kids have No respect.

There is a grain of truth in it, but study of those good old days and simple societies shows that it wasn't so good as all that.
Pining for the past seems like something inevitable. It happens to all of us as we get older and reach back to our selective memories of long ago. Painting a golden picture of the past is something that people with dissatisfaction in their present lives do. It provides a possibility for relief and a way to vent frustrations and possibly an ego boost also in an awareness of "better answers.".

Nostalgia is like a grammar lesson: you find the present tense, but the past perfect! ~Owens Lee Pomeroy
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Richmond, Indiana
123 posts, read 134,865 times
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Following is a great well thought out study explaining in depth Scripturally that Adam and Eve were created mortal beings and not as immortal beings:

Were Adam and Eve Immortal?
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