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Old 01-04-2017, 12:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meester-Chung View Post
again your contradicting yourself claiming Jesus is not in the OT and claiming a being in Proverbs became Jesus

Proverbs 8 is NOT about Michael nor Jesus it is the Author of Proverbs speaking about God

i like the fact that you ignore my posts pointing out your contradictions claiming Michael is Jesus and claiming Jesus is not in the OT



here is you claiming Michael is Jesus

Originally Posted by kjw47
Bible truth shows clearly--Michael is Jesus. The blind teachers cannot see it.

what do you think of Jehovah Witnesses?



The name Jesus is not in the ot--He was. He is second in command from before the creation of the earth. God created all things through him, except for him, God created him--direct--first and last. The speaker in Prov 8--mentions God over and over --it is not God. It is the being who came to earth and was named Jesus as a mortal.
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Old 01-08-2017, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Australia
481 posts, read 165,944 times
Reputation: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meester-Chung View Post
Daniel never said Michael was Jesus and you contradict yourself when you said there was no Jesus in the OT and then claim that Michael was Jesus pointing to Daniel verses that said no such thing. you can't have it both ways. you can't claim that Jesus was not in the OT and then claiming that Michael who was in the OT is Jesus.

proof once again you and your cult don't know jack about Jesus

Jesus is also the Arch angel Michael:

APPENDIX
Who Is Michael the Archangel?




THE spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name—“Who Is Like God?” But who is Michael?
At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon. (Genesis 49:1, 2; Matthew 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth




Just a little bit from JW.org
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:19 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Canada
1,425 posts, read 1,143,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marakorpa View Post
Jesus is also the Arch angel Michael:

APPENDIX
Who Is Michael the Archangel?




THE spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name—“Who Is Like God?” But who is Michael?
At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon. (Genesis 49:1, 2; Matthew 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth




Just a little bit from JW.org

no where in the bible says Michael is another name for Jesus.


in revelation Satan and his Angels were rebelling against God. Michael was one of the angels that battle Satan and expel him and the angels who followed Satan out of heaven

The Book of jude was about the archangel Michael NOT Jesus


Jesus is the Lord of Angels
"And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.' And of the angels He says, 'Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire." (Hebrews 1:6,7)


The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him [Jesus], to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bore record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.”
• Revelation 1:1–2

Author of Revelation told not to worship angels

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then said he [the angel] unto me, ‘See you do it not: for I am your fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.’”
• Revelation 22:8–9




Jesus is better than the Angels

“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time,
[1] ‘You are my Son, this day have I begotten thee’? [2] And again, ‘I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son’? [3] And again, when he brings in the firstbegotten into the world, he says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship him.’
And of the angels he says, ‘Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.’ But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever [literally, the age of the age or the greatest age]: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.”
• Hebrews 1:3–8
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Old 01-09-2017, 01:16 PM
 
4,053 posts, read 1,451,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meester-Chung View Post
no where in the bible says Michael is another name for Jesus.


in revelation Satan and his Angels were rebelling against God. Michael was one of the angels that battle Satan and expel him and the angels who followed Satan out of heaven

The Book of jude was about the archangel Michael NOT Jesus


Jesus is the Lord of Angels
"And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.' And of the angels He says, 'Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire." (Hebrews 1:6,7)


The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him [Jesus], to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bore record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.”
• Revelation 1:1–2

Author of Revelation told not to worship angels

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then said he [the angel] unto me, ‘See you do it not: for I am your fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.’”
• Revelation 22:8–9




Jesus is better than the Angels

“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time,
[1] ‘You are my Son, this day have I begotten thee’? [2] And again, ‘I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son’? [3] And again, when he brings in the firstbegotten into the world, he says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship him.’
And of the angels he says, ‘Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.’ But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever [literally, the age of the age or the greatest age]: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.”
• Hebrews 1:3–8




The greek word-- Proskenau( spelled wrong) carries 5 different meanings from greek to English-- 1) worship to God--2) obeisance to a king--plus 3 others.
Facts of reality= God is king of eternity, Jesus had to be appointed king( Dan 7:13-15)if he were God, he already would be king--but he is not God, thus had to be appointed. obeisance to our appointed king is the correct translation of that greek word in use for Jesus--trinity translations are filled with misleading errors--The facts prove it.


Jesus wasn't Jesus until he became a mortal, but was #2 in command from the start--his name is in the ot= 0 doubt. It is Michael.
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Canada
1,425 posts, read 1,143,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
The greek word-- Proskenau( spelled wrong) carries 5 different meanings from greek to English-- 1) worship to God--2) obeisance to a king--plus 3 others.
Facts of reality= God is king of eternity, Jesus had to be appointed king( Dan 7:13-15)if he were God, he already would be king--but he is not God, thus had to be appointed. obeisance to our appointed king is the correct translation of that greek word in use for Jesus--trinity translations are filled with misleading errors--The facts prove it.


Jesus wasn't Jesus until he became a mortal, but was #2 in command from the start--his name is in the ot= 0 doubt. It is Michael.


the new world translation bible that JWs used is filled with errors



Jesus is the Lord of Angels
"And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.' And of the angels He says, 'Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire." (Hebrews 1:6,7)

Jesus is better than the Angels

“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time,
[1] ‘You are my Son, this day have I begotten thee’? [2] And again, ‘I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son’? [3] And again, when he brings in the firstbegotten into the world, he says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship him.’
And of the angels he says, ‘Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.’ But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever [literally, the age of the age or the greatest age]: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.”
• Hebrews 1:3–8


Author of Revelation told not to worship angels

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then said he [the angel] unto me, ‘See you do it not: for I am your fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.’”
• Revelation 22:8–9
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:19 PM
 
4,053 posts, read 1,451,486 times
Reputation: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meester-Chung View Post
the new world translation bible that JWs used is filled with errors



Jesus is the Lord of Angels
"And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.' And of the angels He says, 'Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire." (Hebrews 1:6,7)

Jesus is better than the Angels

“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time,
[1] ‘You are my Son, this day have I begotten thee’? [2] And again, ‘I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son’? [3] And again, when he brings in the firstbegotten into the world, he says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship him.’
And of the angels he says, ‘Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.’ But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever [literally, the age of the age or the greatest age]: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.”
• Hebrews 1:3–8


Author of Revelation told not to worship angels

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then said he [the angel] unto me, ‘See you do it not: for I am your fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.’”
• Revelation 22:8–9



proof trinity translation misused proskenau for Jesus---While yet a mortal on earth, every trinity translation has mortals bowing to a mortal Jesus in worship-Luke 24:52-Matt 2:11),---obeisance is the true reason they bowed. Not one, lower than the angels gets worship. Their error in those spot' proves they erred in every spot using worship for Jesus. They know its fact--like the Pharisees in Jesus day, outright refuse to make correction.
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Australia
481 posts, read 165,944 times
Reputation: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meester-Chung View Post
no where in the bible says Michael is another name for Jesus.


in revelation Satan and his Angels were rebelling against God. Michael was one of the angels that battle Satan and expel him and the angels who followed Satan out of heaven

The Book of jude was about the archangel Michael NOT Jesus


Jesus is the Lord of Angels
"And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.' And of the angels He says, 'Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire." (Hebrews 1:6,7)


The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him [Jesus], to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bore record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.”
• Revelation 1:1–2

Author of Revelation told not to worship angels

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then said he [the angel] unto me, ‘See you do it not: for I am your fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.’”
• Revelation 22:8–9




Jesus is better than the Angels

“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time,
[1] ‘You are my Son, this day have I begotten thee’? [2] And again, ‘I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son’? [3] And again, when he brings in the firstbegotten into the world, he says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship him.’
And of the angels he says, ‘Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.’ But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever [literally, the age of the age or the greatest age]: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.”
• Hebrews 1:3–8
From Jw.org

APPENDIX
Who Is Michael the Archangel?




THE spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name—“Who Is Like God?” But who is Michael?
At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon. (Genesis 49:1, 2; Matthew 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. Let us consider Scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.
Archangel. God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.” Notice that Michael is called the archangel. This suggests that there is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.
Army Leader. The Bible states that “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon . . . and its angels.” (Revelation 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role. *




Previous

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Old 01-10-2017, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Australia
481 posts, read 165,944 times
Reputation: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meester-Chung View Post
no where in the bible says Michael is another name for Jesus.


in revelation Satan and his Angels were rebelling against God. Michael was one of the angels that battle Satan and expel him and the angels who followed Satan out of heaven

The Book of jude was about the archangel Michael NOT Jesus


Jesus is the Lord of Angels
"And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.' And of the angels He says, 'Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire." (Hebrews 1:6,7)


The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him [Jesus], to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bore record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.”
• Revelation 1:1–2

Author of Revelation told not to worship angels

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then said he [the angel] unto me, ‘See you do it not: for I am your fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.’”
• Revelation 22:8–9




Jesus is better than the Angels

“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time,
[1] ‘You are my Son, this day have I begotten thee’? [2] And again, ‘I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son’? [3] And again, when he brings in the firstbegotten into the world, he says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship him.’
And of the angels he says, ‘Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.’ But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever [literally, the age of the age or the greatest age]: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.”
• Hebrews 1:3–8
What does the reference ARCH mean in relation to this angel? And, When the apostles referred to 'Master or Rabbi' on occasion, who where they speaking to.? When the Bible refers to the Creator, God, the Almighty and Jehovah, who is it referring to.

A better research for you is how do you identify Jehovah in the KJV of the Bible when the name was taken out of that Bible in almost every occasion and replaced with just Lord or God. Jesus was also referred to Lord at times, so confusion was excusable for t hose that tried to fathom just who God, Jehovah was.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:17 PM
 
6,343 posts, read 8,482,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
It is easy to claim people who don't agree with the interpretation you subscribe to are blind. That's just declaring victory by fiat instead of actually presenting a case. In this particular instance you should be arrested for torturing a Bible verse, really. But every sect has a few verses they take captive and take a contrarian position on in order to derive their particular distinctives that make them different from other sects. This doctrine is in part what makes the JWs special, just like everyone else.


....wow. Forget everything crazy that happened in 2016, something crazy just happened in 2017: I REPPED MORDANT


The JWs are basically a cult...well, let me put it this way: on a scale of 1 to 10, with "1" being Deist and Wiccans (who often practice alone and invent their own scriptures) and "10" would be the Heaven's Gate, the JWs would be about an "8" on the cult scale.

In many ways, they are worse than Scientology. At least Scientologists put their kids in public schools and do not think that everyone else has "demon cooties"


I don't care what people believe, but rather how organizations are structured. And the JWs are structured like a fascist regime, with their "governing body" on top who make all the rules and figure out ways of covering up false claims about the end of the world.

Back in the 90s I remember them saying that "the generation around during 1914 would not pass from the Earth before Jesus returned." Well, most people born in 1914 are now dead and maybe a few dozen people are over 103 years old or older. In ten years, that prediction too will be completely modified.

The big issue with the JW is they are LESS likely to listen to any debates than your average Christian because they are terrified of being "disfellowed" and having their families taken away from them. Hence, even if they do see the light and realize they are being duped, they will not admit it.

Poor souls.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Canada
1,425 posts, read 1,143,189 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marakorpa View Post
From Jw.org

APPENDIX
Who Is Michael the Archangel?




THE spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name—“Who Is Like God?” But who is Michael?
At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon. (Genesis 49:1, 2; Matthew 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. Let us consider Scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.
Archangel. God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.” Notice that Michael is called the archangel. This suggests that there is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.
Army Leader. The Bible states that “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon . . . and its angels.” (Revelation 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role. *




Previous
Once again you copy and paste cult propaganda cmaling Michael is Jesus twisting bible verses none of which that Claim Jesus was/is Michael



Hebrews 1

The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”[a]?
Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[b]?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]
8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]
10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[f]
13 To which of the angels did God ever say,

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[g]?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?



JWs worship an angel not Jesus
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