U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Happy Easter!
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 03-07-2010, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,979,546 times
Reputation: 10001

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
It is impossible to say one believes in the Bible, and yet reject the Trinitarina God. And it is only easy not to believe in the Trinitarian God, if your willing to overlook many passages in the Scriptures that speak of HIM.

Isaiah 44:24
This is what the LORD says- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, (WHO MADE ALL THINGS), who (ALONE STRETCHED OUT THE HEAVENS), who spread out the earth (BY MYSELF),

Jehovah's Witnesses will tell us, that Jesus Christ was a second God that was made by the orginal God. The problem comes in, when we discover that the Father then tells us, it was really Jesus Christ who made all things.

Hebrews 1:10
He also says to the Son, "In the beginning, Lord, (YOU LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH AND MADE THE HEAVENS WITH YOUR HANDS).

So can you tell us, who made all things? And don't forget, the God found in Isaiah 44:24 just got through telling us, (THAT HE MADE ALL THINGS ALONE AND BY HIMSELF). Yet now the Father is telling us in Hebrews 1:10, that it was Jesus Christ who made all things, and did this with His own hands.

So if you do not believe in a Trinitarian God, can you tell us. WHICH GOD REALLY MADE ALL THINGS?
Okay, Campbell, let's just get our terminology clear before we even attempt to argue this point further. When you say the "Trinitarian God" are you thinking of the description of God as found in the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds or the description of God as found in the Bible? I believe wholeheartedly in everything the Bible says about God, but I've never read anything in the Bible that describes Him as "three in one" or "one in three." I've never seen the word "substance" used in the Bible to refer to God, or any of the other words trinitarian Christians throw out and expect be to believe. Give me scripture that speaks of God and I will believe it. Throw a metaphysical neo-platonic spin on it and I won't.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-07-2010, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,979,546 times
Reputation: 10001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
God is like an Atom. You have a Neutron, an Electron, and a Proton. All three elements have their funtions, yet together, they all = One Atom.
And yet alone they are not an atom at all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 12:08 PM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,318,832 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Okay, Campbell, let's just get our terminology clear before we even attempt to argue this point further. When you say the "Trinitarian God" are you thinking of the description of God as found in the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds or the description of God as found in the Bible? I believe wholeheartedly in everything the Bible says about God, but I've never read anything in the Bible that describes Him as "three in one" or "one in three." I've never seen the word "substance" used in the Bible to refer to God, or any of the other words trinitarian Christians throw out and expect be to believe. Give me scripture that speaks of God and I will believe it. Throw a metaphysical neo-platonic spin on it and I won't.
JWs should not suppose that successful opposition to trinitarianism constitutes verification of their own theology. Trinitarianism may be considered to be no less heterodox than the JW position.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,979,546 times
Reputation: 10001
Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
JWs should not suppose that successful opposition to trinitarianism constitutes verification of their own theology. Trinitarianism may be considered to be no less heterodox than the JW position.
Surprise, surprise. I agree.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 01:12 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,768,520 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
But they cannot prove what they believe.
No more than you can prove what you believe.

Actually, your belief in the Trinity has a lot more pagan origins than their monoteisthic beliefs.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 01:20 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,768,520 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdRedRain View Post
If you're a Jehovah's Witness or at least a JW sympathiser, does it make you feel comfortable that your religion repeatedly allowed dangerous sex offenders to preach at people's doors with minimal supervision?
Now you are using an ad hominen fallacy. How about does it make you comfortable the bloody history Christian religions have and still they things they do in the name of Christ?

Also, does it bother you that whatever Christian religion also has dangerous sex offenders?

Also, it interesting a comment you make. Are sex offenders not entitled to forgiveness? Did Jesus forgive sinners and you are not using ad hominens on Jehovah's Witnesses? To me that is a punch below the belt that shows your disagreement on what they believe. Not a very Christian move in this case.

Have you personnaly cought some of them as being sex offenders while they are preaching? If so, what was the outcome of you finding out?

You have a great day.
El Amigo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 01:44 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,691,559 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
The fathers of inventions.

The earliest occurrence of the verse in a Greek manuscript dates from the 15th century, if memory serves.
The verse in question can be traced back to the Waldensian Church to the translation of the old italic in the 2nd century. in the 7th century, 12 Old latin mss contain the passage. 21 mss contian it in the 8th century. Consider the link below. The fact is, we have no 1st century mss. So it should come as no surprise that we cannot see an orginal. Yet that verse was both quoted and found in mss from the 2nd century. You would be in error, if you think it just appered in the 15th century.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible...7-exegesis.htm
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 01:54 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,691,559 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Okay, Campbell, let's just get our terminology clear before we even attempt to argue this point further. When you say the "Trinitarian God" are you thinking of the description of God as found in the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds or the description of God as found in the Bible? I believe wholeheartedly in everything the Bible says about God, but I've never read anything in the Bible that describes Him as "three in one" or "one in three." I've never seen the word "substance" used in the Bible to refer to God, or any of the other words trinitarian Christians throw out and expect be to believe. Give me scripture that speaks of God and I will believe it. Throw a metaphysical neo-platonic spin on it and I won't.



I believe that God exist as three seperate beings that = One God. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 1 John 5:7 tells us the samething.

1 John 5:7
For there are (THREE) that bear record in heaven, the (FATHER), the (WORD,) and the (HOLY GHOST and these (THREE ARE ONE).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 02:05 PM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,318,832 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Now you are using an ad hominen fallacy. How about does it make you comfortable the bloody history Christian religions have
What bloody history? Anyone who even gets angry with another is excluded from a church. Didn't you know that?

Quote:
Also, does it bother you that whatever Christian religion also has dangerous sex offenders?
Anyone who even uses an obscene word is excluded from a church. Didn't you know that?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 02:21 PM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,318,832 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
You would be in error, if you think it just appered in the 15th century.
Indeed I would. It would be erroneous if not malicious to suggest that I do.

What I wrote was that, as far as I recalled, there is no Greek ms. until the 15th c. that contains this verse, that is widely considered to be a forgery when presented as John's work. It very clearly existed before then in what passed for the church. It is known as the Comma Johannaeum, and is thought to be a comment that started as a marginal gloss to a copy of 1 John, but was later incorporated in error. Personally, I think that a polytheist (probably under imperial auspices) could not resist the opportunity to insert words to support his and his mentor's view. But, whatever the source, there is no Greek ms. containing it before the 14th c. at the earliest. The single ms. concerned may actually date from the 16th century. (Evidently my memory averaged them out!)

The absurd irony is that the verse proves absolutely nothing, because it omits the crucial word 'person' or 'persons'. It's chief significance is that it utterly obscures a significant teaching that John made here, that few people understand today. It's other significance is that it shows the desperation of Trinitarians to attempt to prove their view.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top