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Old 03-07-2010, 05:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I pretty much agree with everything you said here, but I don't call myself a trinitarian because I reject the language of the Creeds.
Is the Nicene Creed Trinitarian?
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Old 03-07-2010, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,893,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
Is the Nicene Creed Trinitarian?
Yes. First there was the Apostles Creed, which is pretty straightforward and understandable. Then there's the Nicene Creed, which starts to introduce some kind of mystical language nowhere present in the Bible, and which is more difficult to actually make sense of than the Apostles Creed. Finally we have the Athanasian Creed, which reads like some kind of complicated legal document and leaves me with a migraine from trying to figure it out.
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Old 03-07-2010, 05:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Yes. First there was the Apostles Creed, which is pretty straightforward and understandable.
So there's one creed you can presumably agree to.

Quote:
Then there's the Nicene Creed, which starts to introduce some kind of mystical language nowhere present in the Bible, and which is more difficult to actually make sense of than the Apostles Creed.
Are there Trinitarian statements in it?

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.


It would be a refreshing change to get a straightforward and relevant answer in this thread, now and again!

Quote:
Finally we have the Athanasian Creed, which reads like some kind of complicated legal document and leaves me with a migraine from trying to figure it out.
True enough, but very few people actually use it. If they did, they would probably get accused of heresy. So just deal with the Nicene, please.
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Old 03-07-2010, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Midwest
29,145 posts, read 18,402,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
I also have very good close interaction with Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe you did give somewhat of a distorted picture on them. I am not saying what you said is not true. I do believe they have their zealots that may take things too far.

They do expel people that go against their precepts after they are baptized.

People that may have attended and later decide not to attend but never got baptized are not considered as going back on God since they never professed being a Jehovah's Witness.

I suggest that anyone is interested in learning about them. Go and attend their services and find out for yourself. Do not totally believe on hearsay from anyone. That is the best way to find out things for yourself.

The website listed above already tells that is a biased view and anyone that suggest going to it already shows biased against them. That is why the best way to know about Jehovah's Witnesses is to talk to them, meet them, and learn about them. This principle applies in any subject in discussion.

You have a great day.
El Amigo

YouTube - Jehovah's Witnesses-Watchtower Society Exposed Part 7 of 7
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Old 03-07-2010, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,893,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
So there's one creed you can presumably agree to.
Personally, I don't have any issues with it.

Quote:
Are there Trinitarian statements in it?
"Being of one substance with the Father" is definitely trinitarian.

Quote:
It would be a refreshing change to get a straightforward and relevant answer in this thread, now and again!
Nothing in the past two or three pages at least is relevant to the OP. I'm not sure who you're accusing of not giving a straightforward answer, though. As far as I'm concerned, everything I've said has been pretty straightforward. You may disagree.

Quote:
True enough, but very few people actually use it. If they did, they would probably get accused of heresy. So just deal with the Nicene, please.
Very few people use it? Are you kidding? If you want to start a thread on the Nicene Creed, we could discuss it point by point. I don't want to do so on this thread because to me to do so would be taking the thread even further off topic than it already is.
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Old 03-07-2010, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Midwest
29,145 posts, read 18,402,934 times
Reputation: 6969

YouTube - Jehovah's Witnesses in my family
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Old 03-07-2010, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,893,921 times
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It really, really bugs me when I see the word "exposed" in a thread about other people's beliefs. It implies that people who believe differently than the person doing the "exposing" are lying about their beliefs. Why would people lie about their own beliefs? Where would that get them? I don't agree with what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach, but I at least trust them to tell me for accurate information about their teachings. Why would I ask a Catholic or a Methodist or a Baptist to tell me what Jehovah's Witnesses teach more than I would trust a Jehovah's Witness himself? If you "Christians" wanted to learn about Judaism, who would you go to for information... a Muslim? Is there anybody besides me who realizes how stupid that kind of logic is?

Last edited by Katzpur; 03-07-2010 at 06:02 PM..
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Old 03-07-2010, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Midwest
29,145 posts, read 18,402,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiJay View Post
The JW's did not rewrite the Bible, Campbell34. The New World Translation was very carefully researched and translated from the original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek into everyday speech. It is not a rewrite of someone's personal beliefs at all. The translators were meticulous in making sure that the correct translation of particular words was correct- and no, in some instances it does not agree with other versions but that is because other versions were not translated as meticulously. That is why some people misunderstand that we do not have our own translation of the Bible- we have a correct translation.
The translation of the Jehovah Witness bible "EXPOSED!"

The translators of The New World Translation were: Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas, Fred Franz, M. Henschel

"Fred Franz was the only one with any knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self-taught in Hebrew." ["Crisis of Conscience"; by Raymond Franz; Commentary Press, Atlanta; 1983 edition; footnote 15; page 50.]

Four out of the five men on the committee had no Hebrew or Greek training at all, and only a high school education. Franz studied Greek for two years at the University of Cincinnati, but dropped out after his sophomore year. When asked in a Scotland courtroom if he could translate Genesis 2:4 into Hebrew, Franz replied that he could not. The truth is that Franz was unable to translate Hebrew or Greek.

The Jehovah's Witness Bible
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Old 03-07-2010, 06:19 PM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,316,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
"Being of one substance with the Father" is definitely trinitarian.
Now why not say that first time?

On the contrary- it is solidly monotheist, and Biblical, moreover. The so-called Apostles' Creed and the Nicene are orthodox, whereas Trinitarianism is both absurdity and heresy, and Trinitarians who imagine that they recite their belief on Sunday parade are deceiving themselves, as they did with their KJV Comma fantasy for 400 years (which you just approved, btw.)

What you object to is not Trinitarianism, but the view that Jesus is Immanuel- God, with us. Which is what Arius is supposed have objected to. Though maybe the whole thing in his time was a staged fix, to make the polytheists look like the good guys- whereas the truth-tellers were hacked to death by the emperor's troops. That would certainly be the way things seem to be arranged in 'high' places today, anyway- except for the troops, maybe.

Quote:
Nothing in the past two or three pages at least is relevant to the OP.
That's a matter of opinion. It may be considered that there is little to choose between Trinitarianism and Arianism, the former stating what the latter means in terms of destroying Christian teaching, while seeming to be orthodox (for the innumerate, that is).

Quote:
Very few people use it?
Who uses the Athanasian Creed on a regular basis? I'd really like to know.

Church Society - Issues - Doctrine - Athanasian Creed
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Old 03-07-2010, 06:23 PM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,316,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Why would people lie about their own beliefs?
Because they run away from the gospel. That goes for 99.99999% of religious people in the West. Especially on the internet.
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