U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 04-27-2011, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Missouri
661 posts, read 1,030,257 times
Reputation: 303

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
“. . .Yet if by reason of my lie the truth of God has been made more prominent to his glory, why am I also yet being judged as a sinner?” (Romans 3:7)

Do you know what this means?



(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
Ah, so they lied deliberately!

English Standard Version (©2001) Rev 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Do you know what this means? (Apart from the Bible contradicting itself)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-27-2011, 10:36 AM
 
335 posts, read 314,607 times
Reputation: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
Oh! WoW! The man has a document that proves Rutherford a Nazi sympathizer!
Take a good look at those charges as seen by Historian Detlef Garbe, director at the Neuengamme (Hamburg) Memorial.
Dr. Garbe stated "Numerous judgments found in literature about the Wilmersdorf Declaration include erroneous criticism, or rather, are not fair to the text and the situation."
Now, look at this web page:
Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses in Nazi Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now that is funny. I guess you don't understand this was written, along with other communique PRIOR to Hitler's abuse of some in your religion. OF COURSE they will change their tune when not received cordially!

Here was what was written by your WTS which you probably didn't read:

"Dear Reichskanzler,

…The Brooklyn headquarter of the Watchtower Society is pro German in an exemplary way and has been so for many years. For that reason, in 1918, the president of the Society and seven members of the board of directors were sentenced to 80 years in prison, because the president refused to use two of the magazines published in America under his direction for war propaganda against Germany. These two magazines, "The Watchtower" and "Bible Student" were the only magazines in America which refused to engage in anti-German propaganda and for that reason were prohibited and suppressed in America during the war.

In the very same manner, in course of the recent months the board of directors of our Society not only refused to engage in propaganda against Germany, but has even taken a position against it. The enclosed declaration underlines this fact and emphasizes that the people leading in such propaganda (Jewish businessmen and Catholics) also are the most rigorous persecutors of the work of our Society and its board of directors. This and other statements of the declaration are meant to repudiate the slanderous accusation, that Bible Researchers are supported by the Jews.

… The conference of five thousand delegates also noted - as is expressed in the declaration - that the Bible Researchers of Germany are fighting for the very same high ethical goals and ideals which also the national government of the German Reich proclaimed respecting the relationship of humans to God, namely: honesty of the created being towards its creator.

The conference came to the conclusion that there are no contradictions when it comes to the relationship between the Bible Researchers of Germany to the national government of the German Reich. To the contrary, referring to the purely religious and unpolitical goals and efforts of the Bible Researchers, it can be said that these are in full agreement with the identical goals of the national government of the German Reich.

… We are looking forward to your kind approval, which we hope to receive soon, and want to assure our highest respect to you, honorable Mr. Reichskanzler.

Yours faithfully,
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society Magdeburg"

For a scan of the actual yearbook, which I'm sure you don't have, an obviously have not read: http://4jehovah.org/images/stories/d...ry/hitler2.pdf If you scan through you will see underlined words from your beloved WTS and their position of Hitler's government.

You might want to keep in mind that wikipedia is a poor source as it is freely edited. This is your own document. I wonder if you accept it.

"Read carefully and see that your "rebuttal" is thoroughly debunked."




This is a prime example of why JW's remain in the dark about their own history, all they do is try to deflect and excuse without reading what is in their own literature if it is damaging to them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2011, 12:11 PM
 
37,508 posts, read 25,243,901 times
Reputation: 5857
Anyone who can believe in Jehovah as described in the OT does not believe in the God I believe in as revealed by the unambiguous example and teaching of Jesus Christ. There can be no more ANTI-Christ God than the DESCRIPTIONS in the OT.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-28-2011, 08:07 AM
 
Location: playing in the colorful Colorado dirt
4,486 posts, read 4,333,819 times
Reputation: 6932
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
That is elementary.
No JW will ever ask you that!


(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
Maybe you should have been there to hear it then!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-28-2011, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
7,462 posts, read 3,861,756 times
Reputation: 2630
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
I agree!
However, tithing is not a Christian requirement and is not practiced by Jehovah's Witnesses.
Highly debatable, but it probably falls into the category of doing the bare minimum. Christ taught a higher law. Examples: Do not commit adultery + don't even lust after someone you're not married to - don't even entertain the thought of committing adultery. Do not murder + do not do anything to provoke a violent response. In most cases of Christ asked more from his followers than the Law of Moses did -- especially laws and rules designed to make us better people. The New Testament doesn't give us enough details to know exactly how it worked, but we know that the earliest Christians had all their property in common with each other. Logically, that is the higher law of financial sacrifice to the Lord. Many have tried and failed to do what the New Testament says the early Christians did, but most communal systems that have ever been attempted eventually fall apart because of the imperfections of the human beings involved. Those that survived were always severely limited in their growth but the practice.

So if you can't get the ideal Christian system to work, I don't see why tithing would not be the next best thing. After all, a man who cannot keep control of lustful thoughts but is completely faithful to his wife is better than a man who has no self-control at all and cheats on her all the time. Operating off of tithes is asking far less of the Christian faithful than the higher order of giving everything. If you can't make giving everything work, paying tithes is at least something.

Quote:
No one gets paid a salary and no collection is ever taken.
The work is operated entirely on voluntary contributions.
Over the years it has proven to be quite adequate.

Show me another organization like this.


(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
In actuality, some small few leaders are paid with money or given all the necessities of life like a homes, food, etc, all from the JW voluntary contributions. But I don't see how you could make any religion function on a very large scale via nothing but unpaid lay-clergy. It's the principal of the thing that is important: IMHO religious leaders should have regular jobs and make their living just like the rest of us do, and the Jehovah's Witnesses do that as far as I can tell. Their Governing Board of Elders are some of the few who are supported by JW contributions, a tiny exception to the overall rule.

But does this make them unique? No. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does almost exactly the same thing. No paid clergy and any costs to support the small handful of church leaders -- those who are asked to devote themselves full-time to run the whole machine -- are kept to strict minimums. If they can support themselves on their own dime they do so. So pretty much the same thing all over again.

Both LDS and JW do have their exceptions to the overall rule of unpaid clergy, but I doubt that either would have continued on as a unified religion without a strong core of leaders devoting themselves full-time. Interestingly enough, both are Restorationist sects. The two are as different in doctrine as night and day of course. But these two are the only significant world-wide religions that operate without a paid clergy.

The teaching of having an unpaid clergy is certainly not unique to these two religions either. The Waldesians are the oldest surviving Christian denomination to denounce the practice of having a paid priesthood. The Anabaptists were likewise extremely passionately outspoken against the idea of having a paid clergy. The religions that best resembles the orignial Anabaptist faith that still survive today would be the Amish and the Mennonites.

So is having an unpaid church leadership a good thing? I think so, yes. Does it make Jehovah's Witnesses unique? No it doesn't.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-01-2011, 08:09 PM
 
646 posts, read 529,425 times
Reputation: 46
[quote=Driftwood2011;18911770]
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
Oh! WoW! The man has a document that proves Rutherford a Nazi sympathizer!
Take a good look at those charges as seen by Historian Detlef Garbe, director at the Neuengamme (Hamburg) Memorial.
Dr. Garbe stated "Numerous judgments found in literature about the Wilmersdorf Declaration include erroneous criticism, or rather, are not fair to the text and the situation."
Now, look at this web page:
Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses in Nazi Germany - Wikipedia,
Quote:
Now that is funny. I guess you don't understand this was written, along with other communique PRIOR to Hitler's abuse of some in your religion. OF COURSE they will change their tune when not received cordially!

Here was what was written by your WTS which you probably didn't read:

"Dear Reichskanzler,

…The Brooklyn headquarter of the Watchtower Society is pro German in an exemplary way and has been so for many years. For that reason, in 1918, the president of the Society and seven members of the board of directors were sentenced to 80 years in prison, because the president refused to use two of the magazines published in America under his direction for war propaganda against Germany. These two magazines, "The Watchtower" and "Bible Student" were the only magazines in America which refused to engage in anti-German propaganda and for that reason were prohibited and suppressed in America during the war.
And that statement could not possibly mean that the WTBTS is/was not against the people nor government of Germany. In point of fact, they have demonstrated over the years that they are not against the people and government of ANY nation.
Quote:
In the very same manner, in course of the recent months the board of directors of our Society not only refused to engage in propaganda against Germany, but has even taken a position against it. The enclosed declaration underlines this fact and emphasizes that the people leading in such propaganda (Jewish businessmen and Catholics) also are the most rigorous persecutors of the work of our Society and its board of directors. This and other statements of the declaration are meant to repudiate the slanderous accusation, that Bible Researchers are supported by the Jews.
Again - in point of fact, they have consistently refused to engage in propaganda against any national political entity.
Quote:
… The conference of five thousand delegates also noted - as is expressed in the declaration - that the Bible Researchers of Germany are fighting for the very same high ethical goals and ideals which also the national government of the German Reich proclaimed respecting the relationship of humans to God, namely: honesty of the created being towards its creator.
Do you know of Jehovah’s Witnesses ever taking a political position of any kind? Did they write anything about loyalty to Germany? The German government had proclaimed its high ideals and ethical goals.

Hitler: a biography - Google Books

Even though it turned out that they didn’t mean a word of it, apart from its purely political approach, they were not out of harmony with the Christian Scriptures. Can you tell me what was Germany’s stated goals and ideals “respecting the relationship of humans to God?”
If it was, as they stated: “honesty of the created being towards its creator,” how can that possibly be translated as taking a political position?
Oh! Pardon me: You did NOT say that they had taken a political position - did you?
Quote:
The conference came to the conclusion that there are no contradictions when it comes to the relationship between the Bible Researchers of Germany to the national government of the German Reich. To the contrary, referring to the purely religious and unpolitical goals and efforts of the Bible Researchers, it can be said that these are in full agreement with the identical goals of the national government of the German Reich.

… We are looking forward to your kind approval, which we hope to receive soon, and want to assure our highest respect to you, honorable Mr. Reichskanzler.

Yours faithfully,
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society Magdeburg"
You can read whatever you want into that, but, until you can show, apart from the political aspect, that the STATED goals and ideals of Germany were unscriptural and unchristian, you really have no case.

Quote:
This is a prime example of why JW's remain in the dark about their own history, all they do is try to deflect and excuse without reading what is in their own literature if it is damaging to them.
I think that this proves who really is “in the dark” about our history.

I repeat:
"Read carefully and see that your "rebuttal" is thoroughly debunked."

Sorry - tornado knocked out my cable service for a few days.

(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-01-2011, 08:34 PM
 
646 posts, read 529,425 times
Reputation: 46
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
I agree!
However, tithing is not a Christian requirement and is not practiced by Jehovah's Witnesses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Highly debatable,
What is? Its either we do or we don’t - we don’t!
Quote:
but it probably falls into the category of doing the bare minimum.
What does?
Quote:
Christ taught a higher law. Examples: Do not commit adultery + don't even lust after someone you're not married to - don't even entertain the thought of committing adultery. Do not murder + do not do anything to provoke a violent response. In most cases of Christ asked more from his followers than the Law of Moses did -- especially laws and rules designed to make us better people.
You are scratching the air! None of this has anything to do with tithing.
Quote:
The New Testament doesn't give us enough details to know exactly how it worked,
How what worked? There was no tithing in the early Christian congregation. If you insist, show me the scriptures!
Quote:
but we know that the earliest Christians had all their property in common with each other.
Still - no tithing!
Quote:
Logically, that is the higher law of financial sacrifice to the Lord. Many have tried and failed to do what the New Testament says the early Christians did, but most communal systems that have ever been attempted eventually fall apart because of the imperfections of the human beings involved. Those that survived were always severely limited in their growth but the practice.
Sir,
What in the world are you talking about? You asked about tithing - I answered you and now you go on and on about what not!
Quote:
So if you can't get the ideal Christian system to work, I don't see why tithing would not be the next best thing.
Well, it works for us, so we don’t need the tithe.
Quote:
After all, a man who cannot keep control of lustful thoughts but is completely faithful to his wife is better than a man who has no self-control at all and cheats on her all the time. Operating off of tithes is asking far less of the Christian faithful than the higher order of giving everything. If you can't make giving everything work, paying tithes is at least something.
You seem unable to keep track of your own thoughts. We don’t operate by our own desires. Being Christian means to do as Jesus commanded. I told you - how many times must I say it? We don’t need it, neither did Christ order it.
No one gets paid a salary and no collection is ever taken. The work is operated entirely on voluntary contributions. Over the years it has proven to be quite adequate.
Show me another organization like this.
Quote:
In actuality, some small few leaders are paid with money or given all the necessities of life like a homes, food, etc, all from the JW voluntary contributions.
Can you back that up with some facts? No homes are supported and given to any of Jehovah’s people.
Quote:
But I don't see how you could make any religion function on a very large scale via nothing but unpaid lay-clergy.
You just said it! You just don’t see! Not our fault.
Quote:
It's the principal of the thing that is important:
Principal? What are you talking about?
Quote:
IMHO religious leaders should have regular jobs and make their living just like the rest of us do, and the Jehovah's Witnesses do that as far as I can tell. Their Governing Board of Elders are some of the few who are supported by JW contributions, a tiny exception to the overall rule.
Supported? What do you mean? Food, clothing, shelter and a few pennies for bus fare is ALL they get!
Quote:
But does this make them unique? No. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does almost exactly the same thing.
So far, no facts! Try substantiating that claim - will you?
Quote:
No paid clergy and any costs to support the small handful of church leaders -- those who are asked to devote themselves full-time to run the whole machine -- are kept to strict minimums. If they can support themselves on their own dime they do so. So pretty much the same thing all over again.

Both LDS and JW do have their exceptions to the overall rule of unpaid clergy, but I doubt that either would have continued on as a unified religion without a strong core of leaders devoting themselves full-time. Interestingly enough, both are Restorationist sects. The two are as different in doctrine as night and day of course. But these two are the only significant world-wide religions that operate without a paid clergy.

The teaching of having an unpaid clergy is certainly not unique to these two religions either. The Waldesians are the oldest surviving Christian denomination to denounce the practice of having a paid priesthood. The Anabaptists were likewise extremely passionately outspoken against the idea of having a paid clergy. The religions that best resembles the orignial Anabaptist faith that still survive today would be the Amish and the Mennonites.

So is having an unpaid church leadership a good thing? I think so, yes. Does it make Jehovah's Witnesses unique? No it doesn't.
Sir, don’t be ridiculous! It is wise to talk about what you know.
Who’s talking about an unpaid “church leadership” or CLERGY? There is no clergy class among Jehovah’s Witnesses!

Please read carefully - NO ONE gets paid a salary! Not secretaries, grounds men, decorators, tradesmen, reporters, landscapers, housekeepers, researchers, legal staff, writers, transporters, printers, receptionists, mechanics, medical staff, carpenters, painters, architects, graphic artists, musicians, etc - NOBODY!

And no collection is ever taken!

Yes - we are unique!


(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-05-2011, 03:52 AM
 
4,997 posts, read 13,546,539 times
Reputation: 2400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood2011 View Post
But this is the penalty for not listening:

"You Can live Forever (1982, 1990) p.255
Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God's new system. There is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization — God's visible organization — that will survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation." It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal… You must be part of Jehovah's organization, doing God's will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life…"
This kind of statement means to me that you worship Jehovah out of fear. What ever happened to love? What you are saying is if you are not a JW then you will die at Armageddon, and if you are you get a reward. I could never worship any God out of fear or desire for a reward. Why not love for love's sake? Why not love because it is within you to love? Love has no fear. This speaks of a great fear to me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-05-2011, 03:58 AM
 
4,997 posts, read 13,546,539 times
Reputation: 2400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
Of course not. I've never implied that. They, like you, would never openly admit that to an outsider. But the topics they speak of and the manner of presenting their viewpoint is all too obvious.

No one would expect anything else. But the entire premise of the JW faith is based on a select few being saved from some horrible future cataclysm. And that select few will be Jws; others are lost. That's fear in its truest sense.

The brutal truth is that fear is an extremely powerful emotion and most people spend much of their lives in fear of all kinds of things; some real, others imagined. Using that fear to manipulate them is a very common method that certainly isn't exclusive to religious faith of any flavor. Politics and advertising work the same way.

October 2010 edition of Awake!...

The cover asks, "Who can you TRUST?"

The implied message: Fear your fellow man, unless he's a JW.

Observations.

Not allegations.

Please offer my greetings to the rest of the group you're speaking for.

Years ago, my ex-wife's sister attended a Kingdom Hall for a couple of years. Her brief first marriage had ended. She was lonely, childless, and vulnerable. She sought comfort and companionship. Eventually, she stopped going, because, as she told it to me, she felt that she would never be truly accepted since she was divorced.

She is happily remarried and has a lovely daughter she's very proud of. She and her hubby have been attending their local Methodist church and seem to be well satisfied.
When I was a JW I lived in fear of Armageddon. This was not a fear that I spoke up about. It was supposed to have come about in 1975. What helped me was when I found in their books in their library that they had other past dates that they hoped I would never see. I imagine that they no longer keep old books. After 1975 came and went I never paid attention to another prediction of the end from anyone. How many JWs live in this fear? Hard to say because it would be wrong to speak out about it. It would show that you lacked faith and could get you into trouble.



Quote:
JWs are not afraid of each other the way Baptists, Catholics and so many others are. In proof of that, a woman at the door told me that her religion is just as good as mine. I asked her a simple question: "Would you leave your handbag on your seat at church and go to the restroom?"
The way in which JWs are afraid of each other is this: You have to be careful of what you say to them because if you have doubts, they will get reported to the Elders. You could get kicked out. JWs are like the spys in communist China of the 50s when they told on their parents, friends, children, etc. In China it was required that you speak out just as it is with the JWs. And speaking out can get you tossed out, whereas in China you will end up in prison where they are trying to reform you. You have to walk the party line as a JW.

I notice here that the JWs on this thread never say anything about what those who have been disfellowshipped have said, and I realize this is because they don't believe us. As a JW I was taught that those that leave are liars; they cannot be trusted to tell you the truth. I remember telling a friend of mine that was thinking of going back to the JWs (she had never been baptized) that those that have been kicked out suffer greatly, and that she should read a certain exJW website. She called me a liar. We haven't spoken since since she blocked my phone calls to her.

Last edited by Mattie Jo; 05-05-2011 at 04:07 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-05-2011, 04:29 AM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,232,873 times
Reputation: 12496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunucu Beach View Post
I don't think they are being malicious either, not with any of their proselytizing no matter what day it is. Nevertheless, I don't buy the excuse that they go out on Christmas Day, or any holiday, because they "can't find people at home on regular days". Thus, I could not help but think they were using the young boy to gain an audience on a holiday--CHRISTMAS!!--since they knew people might be ticked off by an adult knocking on the door on that particular day but would be reluctant to chew out a young child.

While I can understand that there ARE people who are seeking a religious anchor and need it to help themselves regain their equilibrium, I and many millions of other non-JW's resent the repeated knocking on my door every few weeks. It's always tempting to say, "If I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times--'I'm not interested'"

A couple of years ago, Scientology tracked me down from my brief interest in them forty years ago (!!!) when I lived in California. I had moved a dozen times in the intervening years, including two state-to-state moves. I was polite and said I would listen to the DVD she offered to send me. It arrived in the mail and I found it so boring, I turned it off after one hour of blather. When the Scientology proselytizer called me back, I told her very nicely how I felt......that I had shown no interest in Scientology for forty years but I had watched most of the DVD anyway, found it a total bore, that my interest was not the least bit piqued and please don't call me back again. Then I started getting mailings from them. After about two weeks, another person called me back. I told her the same thing I had told the first person and ended with, "Please don't call me back". Two weeks later, still another person called me--identifying herself as being from "Brook Publishing", which fooled me at first because I didn't realize Brook Publishing is the publishing arm of Scientology. I was irritated and asked if they kept notes about their calls, that I had asked not be called again. She said "yes, they kept notes" but still thought I might be interested. I was still polite but told her firmly, "Please don't call me back again. I'm not interested." In the meantime, I had to jump through hoops to get off their mailing list but I was successful at that. About a month went by and one day I got another call from "Brook Publishing". Now I'm on to them and now I'm really, really mad. I am not one bit ashamed to say I let her have it with all the firepower of anger and profanity in my vocabulary. She barely got a word in edgewise before I fired another volley of profanity at Scientology and their "crap philosophy" I told her it was crap 40 years ago and it was still crap today and she had some f**king nerve to keep calling and calling when I had clearly asked not to be contacted again. She finally hung up on me. I never heard from them again. (Mission accomplished.)

I've never treated JW's like this but when they keep showing up again and again on my doorstep, it's tempting.
I don't know if they are being for real or not either. That's just what the JW's I knew told me.

That is very creepy and obnoxious in regards to the Scientologists. Honestly, I am sure that qualifies as harassment. I agree that part of door-knocking and phone-calling and so on is knowing "no means no."

I'm glad you successfully got rid of the Scientologists. JW's can definitely be pushy but I've never heard of them being that pushy before.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top