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Old 05-13-2011, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
7,569 posts, read 3,898,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood2011 View Post
Many of these nice people have no idea of the history and hypocrisy behind their religion. There is a wealth of information on the internet about them.

They have a knack for pointing out the failures in other religions and then omitting their own.

Remember too, if you become one, you cannot actively participate on forums like these with them knowing it. Their cult will label everything which speaks against them as from the devil, and use this "victimization" to justify their position. I suggest you look at The Rick Ross Institute and Steven Hassan's websites about the Jehovah's Witness cult and how they operate.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....
With all due respect, many of the same things could be said about just about any religion you care to name. Everyone from Catholics to Southern Baptists have some really shady stuff in their past history, so I don't see where the Jehovah's Witnesses are terribly unique from every other religion.

Granted, incorrectly predicting the date of the Second Coming 6 or 7 times hurts their credibility. And yes in my experience they do tend to like to attack other faiths on everything imaginable. But neither of these things makes them any worse than a long list of other religions out there.

As for the rest? Well, wilsoncole apparently is a member in good standing of the JW's. Like I said, I don't just take anything the JW's are accused of with a grain of salt, I keep the whole salt shaker. So I'm kinda doubting that he would be kicked out of his religion for posting on these forums, etc.
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Old 05-13-2011, 09:42 PM
 
335 posts, read 315,290 times
Reputation: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by imbobbbb View Post
Well driftwood,i'm not a jw nor do I have any interest in becoming one but at least from the limited things you posted on jw baptism I didn't interpet a lot of it the same way you did.
The interesting part of the baptism dedication I mentioned is in regards of what they are pledging allegience to. The bible says to be baptised in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit. That is what they originally did. These are the per-1985 questions:

(1) Have you repented of your sins and turned around, recognizing yourself before Jehovah God as a condemned sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ?

(2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?

Changed to:

The first question is:

"On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?"

The second is:

"Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?"

I thought this was a little unique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imbobbbb View Post
In my experiance most churches have a knack for pointing out the failures in other churches while omitting their own.....the jws wouldn't be unique in that regard.

Many churches regard negativity directed toward them as inspired or directed by the devil......again nothing unique there.
Agree.
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Old 05-13-2011, 09:52 PM
 
335 posts, read 315,290 times
Reputation: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
With all due respect, many of the same things could be said about just about any religion you care to name. Everyone from Catholics to Southern Baptists have some really shady stuff in their past history, so I don't see where the Jehovah's Witnesses are terribly unique from every other religion..
Agree; they are not unique as they are just an offshoot of the 2nd advent movement started by William Miller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Granted, incorrectly predicting the date of the Second Coming 6 or 7 times hurts their credibility. And yes in my experience they do tend to like to attack other faiths on everything imaginable. But neither of these things makes them any worse than a long list of other religions out there...
I think they are just as bad as the rest of religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
As for the rest? Well, wilsoncole apparently is a member in good standing of the JW's. Like I said, I don't just take anything the JW's are accused of with a grain of salt, I keep the whole salt shaker. So I'm kinda doubting that he would be kicked out of his religion for posting on these forums, etc ..
I have some family members who are JW's. Who and what wilsoncole really is doesn't matter. JW's are constantly being told of the evils of higher education, internet forums, facebook, etc. They have a monthly letter called the kindom ministry which addresses this. They get info about the internet all the time because of ex-witnesses posting information about their experiences in the religion. They do not want to have their teachings questioned and their falsehoods exposed.

As for participating on religious forums, they will be disciplined if it is found out. You would have to have a close connection or actual experience with them to understand how they really operate.

All non-Jw's are considered "worldly people" and they are not supposed to associate with them unnecessarily, on the internet, or in person. They could be considered "spritually weak" or "unclean." Worldly people are labeled as "bad association."

Scientologists and Moonies are the same.

Most other religions in Christendom don't really control associations of their members to the degree that Moderator cut: deleted do.

Last edited by june 7th; 05-14-2011 at 06:35 AM..
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Old 05-14-2011, 12:25 AM
 
646 posts, read 530,673 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood2011 View Post
Agree; they are not unique as they are just an offshoot of the 2nd advent movement started by William Miller.

I think they are just as bad as the rest of religion.
Why? Is it because they get involved in politics, kill each other on the battlefield, steal from each other in the Kingdom Halls, teach lies about their God burning people in hellfire, preach for money, condone immorality of every sort, etc, etc.?
If they do not engage in such conduct, how in the world can they be just as bad as the rest of religion?

Quote:
I have some family members who are JW's. Who and what wilsoncole really is doesn't matter. JW's are constantly being told of the evils of higher education, internet forums, facebook, etc. They have a monthly letter called the kindom ministry which addresses this. They get info about the internet all the time because of ex-witnesses posting information about their experiences in the religion. They do not want to have their teachings questioned and their falsehoods exposed.
As for participating on religious forums, they will be disciplined if it is found out. You would have to have a close connection or actual experience with them to understand how they really operate.
This is simply not true! I tell my associates about my experiences here and on other forums.
Quote:
All non-Jw's are considered "worldly people" and they are not supposed to associate with them unnecessarily, on the internet, or in person. They could be considered "spritually weak" or "unclean." Worldly people are labeled as "bad association."

Scientologists and Moonies are the same.

Most other religions in Christendom don't really control associations of their members to the degree that cults do.
JWs are interested in cultivating the qualities valued by Jehovah. Qualities such as being loyal, faithful, fidelity, trustworthy, truthful, generous, kind, loving, peaceful, mild, under self-control, orderly, clean, friendly, endurance, wise, joyful, sensible, insightful, frugal, humble, understanding, uplifting, consoling, merciful, forgiving, caring, sincere, happy, moral, chaste, discerning, sharing, knowlegable, agreeable, honorable, integrity, hospitable, earnest, affectionate, comforting, honest, principled, respectful, steady, obedient, considerate, devoted, content, decent, non-violent, gracious, etc, etc.
Apparently you do not like those qualities because they are acquired by serious Bible study, personal application, meeting attendance and sharing their faith with others.

Since you see them as bad or misguided people for their beliefs, conduct and lifestyle, what kind of lifestyle would you recommend they pursue?


(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
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Old 05-14-2011, 01:05 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
7,569 posts, read 3,898,593 times
Reputation: 2683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood2011 View Post
All non-Jw's are considered "worldly people" and they are not supposed to associate with them unnecessarily, on the internet, or in person. They could be considered "spritually weak" or "unclean." Worldly people are labeled as "bad association."

Scientologists and Moonies are the same.

Most other religions in Christendom don't really control associations of their members to the degree that cults do.
Agreed that these are the types of things that tend to qualify a religion as a cult. Establishing an overwhelming "us vs them" attitude with the rest of the world. Telling members to sever relationships and friendships with all outsiders. Controlling belief, thought, action and associations. Telling their followers what they can or can't read. Doing everything possible to alienate members from everyone who is not part of the sect. Most generally, moving to an isolated location where no outsiders can corrupt the flock.

If the Jehovah's Witnesses do these sorts of things then yes that would make them a cult. But having been friends with a few of them growing up, I have my doubts about all that.

Hey, I've heard that my religion is a cult, yet it wouldn't qualify for any of the above. There are many other religions who see the label "cult" flippantly thrown their way without people really qualifying the accusations implied. Most generally, when I hear the word "cult" the first thing that comes to mind is: "Are the name-callers trying to demonize that religion by calling it a cult, while not having a clue what that religion teaches and practices?" In my experience, that's usually exactly what's going on.

Since wilsoncole seems to have returned to respond, I have an excellent litmus test question to put the matter to rest: wilsoncole if somebody handed you a copy of a Hindu Sutra or a copy of the Quran or a Book of Mormon, are you allowed to read it, or do you risk being disciplined for reading such books?
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Old 05-14-2011, 01:57 PM
 
335 posts, read 315,290 times
Reputation: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post

This is simply not true! I tell my associates about my experiences here and on other forums.

Wilson
I like how you carefully chose the word associates. I was addressing the direction you receive from your elders and their bosses. Maybe you were asleep or have a selective memory about the internet and "bad" association through it.

w93 8/1 16-17

"Many people will debate for hours, week after week, but not because they are seeking truth. They just want to undermine another’s faith while flaunting their own supposed education in Hebrew, Greek, or evolutionary science. When encountering them, some Witnesses have felt challenged and have wound up having extended association centered on false religious belief, philosophy, or scientific error. It is noteworthy that Jesus did not let that happen to him, though he could have won debates with religious leaders who were schooled in Hebrew or Greek. When challenged, Jesus replied briefly and then turned his attention again to humble ones, the real sheep.—Matthew 22:41-46; 1 Corinthians 1:23–2:2.

10 Modern computers have opened other avenues to bad association. Some commercial firms enable subscribers using a computer and a telephone to send a message to electronic bulletin boards; a person can thus post on the bulletin board a message that is open to all subscribers. This has led to so-called electronic debates on religious matters. A Christian might be drawn into such debates and may spend many hours with an apostate thinker who may have been disfellowshipped from the congregation. The direction at 2 John 9-11 underscores Paul’s fatherly counsel about avoiding bad associations."

w06 3/15 23


8 “Do not be misled,” wrote the apostle Paul. “Bad associations spoil useful habits.” (1 Corinthians 15:33) Jesus Christ told his disciples: “You are no part of the world.” (John 15:19) Upon learning these principles, we quickly see the need to avoid fellowship with fornicators, adulterers, thieves, drunkards, and the like. (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) As we progress in knowledge of Bible truth, though, we realize that spending time with such individuals by watching them in movies, on television, or on computer screens or by reading about them in books is just as damaging. The same can be said of associating in Internet chat rooms “with those who hide what they are.”—Psalm 26:4.



"A more subtle danger, though, lies in getting caught up in improper fellowship with strangers who do not respect Bible principles."

Watchtower '04 - 15th Feb

"How can we guard against being deceived by apostates? By heeding the advice from God’s Word, which says: “Keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them.” (Romans 16:17) We “avoid them” by steering clear of their reasonings—whether in person, in printed form, or on the Internet."

Kingdom Ministry Sept '02

"Bear in mind that our heavenly Father has an appointed channel of communication, “the faithful and discreet slave.” That “slave” has the responsibility to determine what information is made available to the household of faith, as well as “the proper time” for it to be dispensed. This spiritual food is available only through the theocratic organization. We should always look to God’s appointed channel for reliable information, not to a network of Internet users.—Matt. 24:45."

How do you know who you are associating with here?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and let you claim ignorance on the direction from your leaders on this. Maybe you just count "time" here so you don't have to go out knocking on people's doors.


As far as the platitudes you wish to represent your religion with, you are not the only ones with the positive attributes, either in or out of religion.

As for bad behavior, well: Family Murders by Jehovah's Witnesses

silentlambs.org - Welcome

Jehovah's Witness crimes - Interactive Map/Database (1), Jehovah's Witnesses / Friends - Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum

You may argue that these issues are worse in the larger religions, but it would be interesting to see a per capita relationship in that argument. I recommend the "straw and rafter" approach.
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:49 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
7,569 posts, read 3,898,593 times
Reputation: 2683
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Agreed that these are the types of things that tend to qualify a religion as a cult. Establishing an overwhelming "us vs them" attitude with the rest of the world. Telling members to sever relationships and friendships with all outsiders. Controlling belief, thought, action and associations. Telling their followers what they can or can't read. Doing everything possible to alienate members from everyone who is not part of the sect. Most generally, moving to an isolated location where no outsiders can corrupt the flock.

If the Jehovah's Witnesses do these sorts of things then yes that would make them a cult. But having been friends with a few of them growing up, I have my doubts about all that.

Hey, I've heard that my religion is a cult, yet it wouldn't qualify for any of the above. There are many other religions who see the label "cult" flippantly thrown their way without people really qualifying the accusations implied. Most generally, when I hear the word "cult" the first thing that comes to mind is: "Are the name-callers trying to demonize that religion by calling it a cult, while not having a clue what that religion teaches and practices?" In my experience, that's usually exactly what's going on.

Since wilsoncole seems to have returned to respond, I have an excellent litmus test question to put the matter to rest: wilsoncole if somebody handed you a copy of a Hindu Sutra or a copy of the Quran or a Book of Mormon, are you allowed to read it, or do you risk being disciplined for reading such books?
I'm seriously trying to give the JW point of view every possible benefit of the doubt ... but they keep on not answering the questions that I would consider the most crucial.

Are JW's prohibited from reading religious works that their leadership considers a threat?

To what degree is conformity demanded of them?

You hear a whole host of things that they're apparently not allowed to do. Which ones are myths and which ones are real?

Every Christian religion in existence believes their interpretation and understanding of the Bible is superior to all others. Does the JW religion have any other basis for their claim to be "the only true religion" other than "we're reading the Bible right and nobody else is" or is there some other basis for it??

The most disappointing thing has been the lack of answers to these questions. I don't want to hate on JW's I want to understand and separate fact from fiction.
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Old 05-16-2011, 01:05 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,965,943 times
Reputation: 10000
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
I'm seriously trying to give the JW point of view every possible benefit of the doubt ... but they keep on not answering the questions that I would consider the most crucial.

Are JW's prohibited from reading religious works that their leadership considers a threat?

To what degree is conformity demanded of them?

You hear a whole host of things that they're apparently not allowed to do. Which ones are myths and which ones are real?
I'm right there with you, godofthunder. As a matter of fact, I just posted part of post #403 on another forum I participate on, and so far, no JW has responded to my questions.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:39 AM
 
646 posts, read 530,673 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
I'm seriously trying to give the JW point of view every possible benefit of the doubt ... but they keep on not answering the questions that I would consider the most crucial.

Are JW's prohibited from reading religious works that their leadership considers a threat?

To what degree is conformity demanded of them?

You hear a whole host of things that they're apparently not allowed to do. Which ones are myths and which ones are real?

Every Christian religion in existence believes their interpretation and understanding of the Bible is superior to all others. Does the JW religion have any other basis for their claim to be "the only true religion" other than "we're reading the Bible right and nobody else is" or is there some other basis for it??

The most disappointing thing has been the lack of answers to these questions. I don't want to hate on JW's I want to understand and separate fact from fiction.
Mr. Thunder,
I have every intention of answering your questions. Only problem is that my work has picked up considerably and leaves me little time for internet activity.
One point I'd like to mention before I go to work:
Jehovah's Witnesses do not have the authority to prohibit anyone from doing anything they want to.
If you read all the "recommended" literature by opposers, you will never find "banned, forbidden, prohibited, restricted, allowed, controlled, demanded, unauthorized, etc, etc," regarding any activity that a JW wants to engage in.
There are invitations and recommendations, as the Greek scriptures also contain (Matt. 11:28-30), but no banning nor forbidding. That would absolutely remove the exercise of free will from Jehovah's human creation. Even Adam was free to do as he pleased. Bad choice, bad results. I challenge anyone to produce any printed material from WTB&TS that contain such injunctions.
So all of the claims about controls over our lives, even from ex-JWs, remain without any evidence and amounts to a huge lie.

Here's something else that makes us unique:
Unequalled unity and love among themselves.
No matter where you go or what language you encounter, JWs are always studying the very same Bible chapters, the same pages and paragraphs of their study publications; even singing the very same songs, opening and closing, at their bi-weekly meetings.
Show me something similar - anywhere.

I will address the love later.

Yes - we are unique!

(It took me 2 days to finish this post.)

(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
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Old 05-21-2011, 07:06 AM
 
646 posts, read 530,673 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood2011 View Post
I like how you carefully chose the word associates. I was addressing the direction you receive from your elders and their bosses. Maybe you were asleep or have a selective memory about the internet and "bad" association through it.

w93 8/1 16-17

"Many people will debate for hours, week after week, but not because they are seeking truth. They just want to undermine another’s faith while flaunting their own supposed education in Hebrew, Greek, or evolutionary science. When encountering them, some Witnesses have felt challenged and have wound up having extended association centered on false religious belief, philosophy, or scientific error. It is noteworthy that Jesus did not let that happen to him, though he could have won debates with religious leaders who were schooled in Hebrew or Greek. When challenged, Jesus replied briefly and then turned his attention again to humble ones, the real sheep.—Matthew 22:41-46; 1 Corinthians 1:23–2:2.

10 Modern computers have opened other avenues to bad association. Some commercial firms enable subscribers using a computer and a telephone to send a message to electronic bulletin boards; a person can thus post on the bulletin board a message that is open to all subscribers. This has led to so-called electronic debates on religious matters. A Christian might be drawn into such debates and may spend many hours with an apostate thinker who may have been disfellowshipped from the congregation. The direction at 2 John 9-11 underscores Paul’s fatherly counsel about avoiding bad associations."

w06 3/15 23


8 “Do not be misled,” wrote the apostle Paul. “Bad associations spoil useful habits.” (1 Corinthians 15:33) Jesus Christ told his disciples: “You are no part of the world.” (John 15:19) Upon learning these principles, we quickly see the need to avoid fellowship with fornicators, adulterers, thieves, drunkards, and the like. (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) As we progress in knowledge of Bible truth, though, we realize that spending time with such individuals by watching them in movies, on television, or on computer screens or by reading about them in books is just as damaging. The same can be said of associating in Internet chat rooms “with those who hide what they are.”—Psalm 26:4.



"A more subtle danger, though, lies in getting caught up in improper fellowship with strangers who do not respect Bible principles."

Watchtower '04 - 15th Feb

"How can we guard against being deceived by apostates? By heeding the advice from God’s Word, which says: “Keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them.” (Romans 16:17) We “avoid them” by steering clear of their reasonings—whether in person, in printed form, or on the Internet."

Kingdom Ministry Sept '02

"Bear in mind that our heavenly Father has an appointed channel of communication, “the faithful and discreet slave.” That “slave” has the responsibility to determine what information is made available to the household of faith, as well as “the proper time” for it to be dispensed. This spiritual food is available only through the theocratic organization. We should always look to God’s appointed channel for reliable information, not to a network of Internet users.—Matt. 24:45."

How do you know who you are associating with here?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and let you claim ignorance on the direction from your leaders on this. Maybe you just count "time" here so you don't have to go out knocking on people's doors.


As far as the platitudes you wish to represent your religion with, you are not the only ones with the positive attributes, either in or out of religion.

As for bad behavior, well:

You may argue that these issues are worse in the larger religions, but it would be interesting to see a per capita relationship in that argument. I recommend the "straw and rafter" approach.
I notice that you have access to past issues of the WTLIB.
From that, I conclude that you are an ex-JW. If that is the case, why would you want to talk to me if not to "undermine another’s (my) faith?"
You could only do that if I let you.


(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
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