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Old 10-21-2016, 01:33 PM
 
4,066 posts, read 1,456,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
It was your statement, not mine. You said that they are to be believed and trusted just like scripture is to be believed and trusted and like Jesus is to be believed and trusted. If that is the uncritical following expected, then yes, they ARE making themselves equal to Jesus and to the scriptures. If that's not what you meant to say, perhaps you would like to retract it.



Luke 10:16-- these are Gods inspired words. Take it up with him.
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Old 10-21-2016, 01:36 PM
 
4,066 posts, read 1,456,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marakorpa View Post
KJW47 Do you notice that no one will give scriptural proof that the JWs are wrong, or more importantly that God's Word is wrong. I think I am a bit hard on them as they do not have the where with all to understand what is written, and wouldn't know the bible from a Phantom Comic. This is not an insult as it shows its truth through the lack of Scriptural proof from the debaters.



They cannot prove it wrong. But it cannot be proven right either--- the only thing one can go by is by knowing 100% who Jesus' real teachers are. Few know them.
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Old 10-21-2016, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,569,500 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
Luke 10:16-- these are Gods inspired words. Take it up with him.
Ah, but you see, I am taking it up with YOU. Don't run away; it doesn't look good.

If god gave us minds and expects us to use them, then there should be no conflict at all between his commands / edicts / principles and observable reality, logic and reason.

If god grants humans the grace to "think his thoughts after him" and invent blood transfusions or cell phones or computer networks or self-driving automobiles ... what basis is there to cherry pick to benefit from some of god's grace but not all of it? On what basis do you judge blood transfusions a snare and a sin, and electric lights a blessing of god?

These are simple questions that should be answerable without resorting to your (interpretation of) your holy book. If not -- if you must resort to quotemined scripture or the pronouncements of your accepted teachers -- with the ultimate cop-out being, well, god says so, take it up with him -- then what basis do you have to expect anyone to accept your reasoning?
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Old 10-21-2016, 04:18 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,151,064 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Ah, but you see, I am taking it up with YOU. Don't run away; it doesn't look good.

If god gave us minds and expects us to use them, then there should be no conflict at all between his commands / edicts / principles and observable reality, logic and reason.

If god grants humans the grace to "think his thoughts after him" and invent blood transfusions or cell phones or computer networks or self-driving automobiles ... what basis is there to cherry pick to benefit from some of god's grace but not all of it? On what basis do you judge blood transfusions a snare and a sin, and electric lights a blessing of god?

These are simple questions that should be answerable without resorting to your (interpretation of) your holy book. If not -- if you must resort to quotemined scripture or the pronouncements of your accepted teachers -- with the ultimate cop-out being, well, god says so, take it up with him -- then what basis do you have to expect anyone to accept your reasoning?

Very well said. A JW cannot think for himself - when presented with something they have not memorized an apologetic for, they must furiously consult their literature and if that fails them: consult an Elder. I have known many, many JWs (some are good friends of mine and have been for decades - despite our differences) and I haven't met a single one that did not fall into the above description.

As for blood transfusions, the JWs have made yet another simple mistake in Biblical exegesis. The Biblical commands to abstain from the consumption of blood are exactly that: the physical consumption (or eating/drinking) of blood from animals. This in NO way physically equals the modern practice of transfusion of blood.

Transfusing blood is not analogous to "eating" or "consuming" it - the literal words of the Hebrew text. Neither is it semantically equivalent - the prohibition against consuming an animals' blood is not analogous to the transfusion of a human's blood.

This very basic mistake undermines their entire Biblical basis for refusing transfusions. It's a simple, biological and linguistic mistake made - whether willfully or ignorantly, it has caused untold pain and suffering.
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Old 10-21-2016, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Missouri
661 posts, read 1,030,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marakorpa View Post
This is an interesting statement from Ringwielder: Have you looked at the Catholic mind claiming chants and repetitious prayer beads. It is a known fact that this chanting, as seen in Africa and Haiti are used in pagan and satanic rites.

Indoctrination has the connotation of some rite preformed on an individual, or that some form of mental re-arranging is required. This does happen in some religions, the Charismatic religions use the flashing of strobe lights, the beating of heavy base drums and the chanting and unintelligible mouth noises to convince the congregation that they are possessed with Spirit, of course they are, but it is a spirit that comes from a different source that they promote.

Have you looked at Church services where the clergy are "Dressed in fine rainment," and are splashing water in the air, and smoking the congregation like some Australian Aboriginal rite.

Then, have you looked into a Kingdom Hall when the congregation sit and listen to talks on various aspects of God's Word, using only God's Word, the Bible to "Indoctrinate the congregation". There is no force, no fear that if they question what is said that they will be tossed out, nothing like that at all.

It would appear that you have never been a Witness to Jehovah in your life, or you would feel bad about lying against them.

Are you not casting serious suspicions at your own ability to determine what it Truth? I mean it took you 40 years, 40 long years of hearing the lies before it finally dawned on you that the JWs were wrong. Man it only took the disciples and the many thousands of people 3 years in Jesus time to know that they were hearing the Truth. Yes, many dropped out of the truth that Jesus spoke, and then the dark ages set in and false religion flourished for a couple of thousand years. But the truth is back, 8 million people know that they have the truth, and it didn't take them 40 years to confirm their belief.

Which ones to you consider to be the most cultish?
Indoctrination means to often repeat an idea or belief to someone in order to persuade them to accept it:
Indoctrination means teaching someone to accept a set of beliefs without questioning them.

That's what happened to me, I was indoctrinated from childhood in the beliefs of the JWs. I was taught just to read the Society's literature, not to question the Governing body, not to doubt. Of course you can question till you're baptized, but then questioning is viewed more suspiciously, it's a sign of discontent, murmuring, spiritual weakness, lack of faith.

They do not use just the Bible at the meetings, that's a lie. They use the Society's literature, the Governing body's interpretation of the Bible and you would never raise your hand to ask a question, you are there to listen and answer questions following strictly what is written in the literature, such as the Watchtower magazine.

I believed it was the truth. The fact that it took so long for me to see it was not is evidence of just how much indoctrination and control I was under. The Society have indoctrinated its followers to believe that those who leave are wicked people. The word 'Apostate' which simply means to abandon ones religion (and which some JWs are themselves, having abandoned a previous religion to become Witnesses) has been incessantly drummed into JWs to mean something else, a person more despicable than a murderer or a pedophile, a dangerous liar, overtaken by the Devil, who just wants to destroy your faith so that you will join him in his life of gratuitous immorality and sin. One of the JWs said on this thread that he would never listen to anything an apostate said, because it's all lies. Their mind is made up before they even hear a word. They are told not to talk to apostates which makes the JWs on here who have engaged in this discussion rebels against their leaders, meaning there is hope for them yet! It shows how flimsy their faith and their doctrine is if they have to be told that speaking to those who have left might cause them to lose their faith too.

I asked a question earlier. Show me from the Bible the process the JWs use of reinstating someone who has been disfellowshipped and how that squares with the example that Jesus used of the Prodigal son. Please make sure you tell those on here who have never been JWs the exact procedure and the Scriptures to back it up. Thank you.
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Old 10-21-2016, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Australia
481 posts, read 166,370 times
Reputation: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringwielder View Post
Indoctrination means to often repeat an idea or belief to someone in order to persuade them to accept it:
Indoctrination means teaching someone to accept a set of beliefs without questioning them.

That's what happened to me, I was indoctrinated from childhood in the beliefs of the JWs. I was taught just to read the Society's literature, not to question the Governing body, not to doubt. Of course you can question till you're baptized, but then questioning is viewed more suspiciously, it's a sign of discontent, murmuring, spiritual weakness, lack of faith.

They do not use just the Bible at the meetings, that's a lie. They use the Society's literature, the Governing body's interpretation of the Bible and you would never raise your hand to ask a question, you are there to listen and answer questions following strictly what is written in the literature, such as the Watchtower magazine.

I believed it was the truth. The fact that it took so long for me to see it was not is evidence of just how much indoctrination and control I was under. The Society have indoctrinated its followers to believe that those who leave are wicked people. The word 'Apostate' which simply means to abandon ones religion (and which some JWs are themselves, having abandoned a previous religion to become Witnesses) has been incessantly drummed into JWs to mean something else, a person more despicable than a murderer or a pedophile, a dangerous liar, overtaken by the Devil, who just wants to destroy your faith so that you will join him in his life of gratuitous immorality and sin. One of the JWs said on this thread that he would never listen to anything an apostate said, because it's all lies. Their mind is made up before they even hear a word. They are told not to talk to apostates which makes the JWs on here who have engaged in this discussion rebels against their leaders, meaning there is hope for them yet! It shows how flimsy their faith and their doctrine is if they have to be told that speaking to those who have left might cause them to lose their faith too.

I asked a question earlier. Show me from the Bible the process the JWs use of reinstating someone who has been disfellowshipped and how that squares with the example that Jesus used of the Prodigal son. Please make sure you tell those on here who have never been JWs the exact procedure and the Scriptures to back it up. Thank you.
First, I have to take it up with you, your statement that the JWs never use the Bible at meetings. What on earth would possess you to say that, it is your lie, your attempt to bolster some ingrained hate for the truth of God's word.

AS for the watchtower Study, we are encouraged to bring in out own thoughts on the questions, as it makes for interesting meetings. If the answer is not in accordance with the Bible, the Bible is use to support the truth. It is a study meeting, and questions form t he congregation are encouraged...What planet did you go to the Meetings?

Reinstating: —Acts 26:20.

Why should a wrongdoer follow the counsel of James 5:14, 15? 14 So, then, what should a repentant wrongdoer do? “Let him call the older men of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, greasing him with oil in the name of Jehovah. And the prayer of faith will make the indisposed one well, and Jehovah will raise him up.” (James 5:14, 15) Approaching the elders is one way for a person to “produce fruit that befits repentance.” (Matthew 3:8) These faithful and warmhearted men will ‘pray over him and grease him with oil in Jehovah’s name.’ Like soothing oil, their Bible counsel will prove to be comforting to anyone who is truly repentant.—Jeremiah 8:22.
15, 16. How do Christian elders follow the example set by God, as recorded at Ezekiel 34:15, 16?
15 What a loving example was set by our Shepherd, Jehovah, when he freed the Jews from Babylonian captivity in 537 B.C.E. and when he liberated spiritual Israel from “Babylon the Great” in 1919 C.E.! (Revelation 17:3-5; Galatians 6:16) He thus fulfilled his promise: “I myself shall feed my sheep, and I myself shall make them lie down . . . The lost one I shall search for, and the dispersed one I shall bring back, and the broken one I shall bandage and the ailing one I shall strengthen.”—Ezekiel 34:15, 16.


Please take note that this information contains SCRIPTURES FROM THE BIBLE.
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Old 10-21-2016, 06:20 PM
Status: "Amused by BF/V." (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
23,353 posts, read 12,079,766 times
Reputation: 10656
Thanks to mordant's, whopper's and Ringwielder's posts above.

They all resonate with truth.



And thanks also, to Marakorpa's - for again illustrating so plainly how JW's...kind of think.
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Old 10-21-2016, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,569,500 times
Reputation: 6003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringwielder View Post
They do not use just the Bible at the meetings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marakorpa View Post
First, I have to take it up with you, your statement that the JWs never use the Bible at meetings. What on earth would possess you to say that, it is your lie, your attempt to bolster some ingrained hate for the truth of God's word.
Read Ringwielder's statement closely. It does not claim you "never use the Bible". It says you do not use JUST the Bible.
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Old 10-21-2016, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Australia
481 posts, read 166,370 times
Reputation: 126
Using teaching material is not just for the JW's is it? but this seems to be one of the unholy grails that the knockers dwell on. Do you condemn any religion that uses study aide for teaching purposes?

Let's Look at that is used the most for Catholics....The Catechism. and tradition above scripture.

Church Of England...Small group Study material. Masses of it, (pardon the pun) Bible scripture rarely used.

Okay, only two, but I am showered with material each time I put in another religion.

However, it is only the JW's use of study material that riles people, right?

Now you can go and attack the education departments of your government, they do it too, that bad, bad, people.
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Old 10-21-2016, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Australia
481 posts, read 166,370 times
Reputation: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Read Ringwielder's statement closely. It does not claim you "never use the Bible". It says you do not use JUST the Bible.
Okay, I stand corrected on word but not intention. Read my thoughts on study material in further post.

It is a pity that this forum was not used a study material, as we would not have to repeat and repeat answers to the same question all the time. If there was a test, hardly anyone would pass.
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