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Old 10-21-2016, 09:54 PM
 
37,579 posts, read 25,282,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
Thanks to mordant's, whopper's and Ringwielder's posts above.
They all resonate with truth.

And thanks also, to Marakorpa's - for again illustrating so plainly how JW's...kind of think.
But you can hardly call what Marakorpa and the JW's do "thinking." It is more parroting what their leaders have taught them.
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Old 10-21-2016, 11:03 PM
Status: "Phlegmatic." (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
23,406 posts, read 12,113,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
But you can hardly call what Marakorpa and the JW's do "thinking." It is more parroting what their leaders have taught them.
Agreed.

Hence the "kind of."
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Old 10-21-2016, 11:33 PM
 
Location: Missouri
661 posts, read 1,030,970 times
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I went to meetings where all the questions were asked by the study conductor. The audience never asked questions, they answered the questions. Unless it has changed, like so many Witness beliefs, in the last 10 years.

Can you tell me where in all the Scriptures you quoted, that there is a period of at least six months, even a year or more in some cases, where a person has to go to every meeting, sit there and be shunned until he/she is finally allowed back into the congregation? Those Scriptures do not suggest a long period of time and for an organization that is so keen on taking examples from virtually every sentence in the Bible, where does the example of the prodigal son fit in? His father did not make him sit outside the house until he had proved he'd given up his life of debauchery.. he ran to him and literally dragged him back in.

Why did I choose the subject of reinstatement ? Because it perfectly illustrates the Pharasaical character of the JW organization, making all sorts of rules and regulations that are not Scriptural, like judicial committees, report cards, baptism questions, no beards, pioneers, no birthdays etc. And i actually agree with you about other religions using their own study aids, but that is irrelevant because we are discussing the JWs here and their claim to be Gods true people.

Last edited by Ringwielder; 10-21-2016 at 11:43 PM..
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Old 10-22-2016, 06:21 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,154,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
But you can hardly call what Marakorpa and the JW's do "thinking." It is more parroting what their leaders have taught them.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringwielder View Post
I went to meetings where all the questions were asked by the study conductor. The audience never asked questions, they answered the questions. Unless it has changed, like so many Witness beliefs, in the last 10 years.
You are correct.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Marakorpa View Post
Using teaching material is not just for the JW's is it? but this seems to be one of the unholy grails that the knockers dwell on. Do you condemn any religion that uses study aide for
There is a huge difference between how the JWs use their literature and how others use it. I assume you're exaggerating because you have no experience with the latter.

The education level of the average JW is High School at most. College is frowned upon, and it's easy to see why: it teaches individuals to critically approach issues using various methods that encourage thinking for one's self. One of the biggest skills one gains from a college education is the ability to critically assess other points of view and incorporate them into one's own approach.

One of my JW friends once told me that it was a waste of time to study or research something, as the JWs had already done it and the results were available in their literature. She literally had no interest whatsoever in thinking through any of these issues herself.

And THAT is the big difference between the JW's literature and other groups (whether religious or secular) "literature". The latter do not have a dogmatic, so-called "inspired" body of literature that dictates exactly how one is to think on a matter. In addition, the JW's literature is so flawed in its approach that it is virtually useless. When it does bother to appeal to non-JW sources for information, it uses old and outdated sources that have long been superseded by new research - simply because newer information would not meet the needs of JW propaganda and dogma. Reading JW literature is an exercise in frustration, as every article is full of so many basic logic holes that any High School teacher could easily give it an F.


P.S. The terrible secondary reasoning given for not attending college has been that the world is going to end - so why waste time going to college? This laughable apocalyptic scare tactic has obviously been proven wrong time and time again, as JWs throw away any attempts at a higher education.

Thus, the reason why JWs are unable to hold their own in a debate - even when appealing to their literature as a shortcut to thinking. They may not realize the weaknesses in their arguments, but it is readily apparent to others. Painfully so!
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Old 10-22-2016, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Missouri
661 posts, read 1,030,970 times
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Quote:
The education level of the average JW is High School at most. College is frowned upon, and it's easy to see why: it teaches individuals to critically approach issues using various methods that encourage thinking for one's self. One of the biggest skills one gains from a college education is the ability to critically assess other points of view and incorporate them into one's own approach.
Yes!

"If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. ... Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in highschool and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!" Awake! 1969 May 22 p.15
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Old 10-22-2016, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,582,953 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marakorpa View Post
Okay, I stand corrected on word but not intention. Read my thoughts on study material in further post.

It is a pity that this forum was not used a study material, as we would not have to repeat and repeat answers to the same question all the time. If there was a test, hardly anyone would pass.
I think the point of his post was that you (or perhaps JW literature) claimed to use only the scripture, not that study material is a bad thing. I agree that it's not really much of a debate point in and of itself. The real issue to my mind, whether we are talking JWs or other groups, is that each group claims to have the correct interpretation of scripture, perhaps as in your case the correct interpreters of scripture. Or we might well say, the correct interpretive system or the correct exegesis.

How does one determine that they have the "correct" system? You would simply kick the can down the road by saying that one hews to the real / true Bible teachers, but then that simply means you have to ask the same question about the teachers.

I usually use the charismatic Christians as an example of how a very little difference on a single point can have pervasive impacts on the entire teaching. When you strip away all the claims and counterclaims, the charismatic teaching hinges really on how you read a half-verse in the book of Acts (what it means and to whom it applies when it says that people speak with other tongues when filled with the holy spirit). Given that the interpretation of scripture is this fragile and ambiguous, and given all the thousands of denominations, sects, etc., one then must ask what the source of this confusion is.

I submit that the source is the generally vague, template-like nature of scripture. It is like a projection screen on which people project their pet dogmas and validate them (this is not picking on the Bible, this is true of any holy book). What JWs do is impose an authoritarian system of interpretation where your elites decide what it means and everyone else accepts it without real question. Oh you make a show of "discussion" but you do not tolerate dissent. That is ONE way to sort it out, to be sure. But it is at bottom yet another group with yet another interpretation that they assert is the One True Interpretation.
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Old 10-22-2016, 08:25 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,154,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringwielder View Post
Yes!

"If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. ... Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in highschool and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!" Awake! 1969 May 22 p.15
Thanks for the quote! I remember this quote, as I have used it in the past. It's a chestnut!

It brings to mind the JWs claim to be modern prophets:
"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? . . . This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses . . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197).
However, it also brings to mind the penalty for false prophecy: DEATH.
And YHWH said to me:
They have done-well in their speaking;
a prophet I will raise up for them among their brothers, like you;
I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them
whatever I command him.

But: the prophet who presumptuously speaks a word in my name
that I have not commanded him to speak
,
or that he speaks in the name of other god;
die that prophet shall!

Now if you should say in your heart:
How can we know it is the word that YHWH did not speak?
Should the prophet speak in the name of YHWH
but the word not happen, not come-about -
(then) that is the word that YHWH did not speak;
with presumption did the prophet speak it;
you are not to be-in-fear of him!
(Deuteronomy 18:17-22 SB Fox)
Whoops! How awkward!

I guess if we accept the Bible as a guiding principle, then...
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Old 10-22-2016, 08:31 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,154,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post

I submit that the source is the generally vague, template-like nature of scripture. It is like a projection screen on which people project their pet dogmas and validate them (this is not picking on the Bible, this is true of any holy book). What JWs do is impose an authoritarian system of interpretation where your elites decide what it means and everyone else accepts it without real question. Oh you make a show of "discussion" but you do not tolerate dissent. That is ONE way to sort it out, to be sure. But it is at bottom yet another group with yet another interpretation that they assert is the One True Interpretation.

The unfortunate side effect in the above is that the JWs reading of the Bible is hundreds of years out of date. Not only do they still use the incorrect name "Jehovah", but they have alienated themselves from the advancement of knowledge that has been made in the past 500 years concerning the Bible, God and Theology.

While the rest of the world moves on in their collective search for Theological advancement and ecumenical cooperation, they insist on separating themselves from it and declaring that all other Christians are actually Satanic. Therefore, they begin their dogmatic assertion of their literature's primacy from a position of outdated ignorance.

This is unfortunate. "Advancement" to some of the JWs I personally know consists of showing me that their literature is now available on an I-Pad!
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Old 10-22-2016, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,582,953 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
This is unfortunate. "Advancement" to some of the JWs I personally know consists of showing me that their literature is now available on an I-Pad!
That may be a tactical error in the sense that iPads have web browsers that tap into the whole range of knowledge on the Internet ... seems dangerous from a JW perspective.
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Old 10-22-2016, 09:51 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,154,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
That may be a tactical error in the sense that iPads have web browsers that tap into the whole range of knowledge on the Internet ... seems dangerous from a JW perspective.
Ha ha.... I wonder if they have to install filters to block certain sites.
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