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I can't say that I agree with them being a cult but I do find them very annoying and pushy. They also have lousy timing and don't seem to understand the word NO. But, that's based on my experience with them.
Originally Posted by Old Gringo
They're very frightened. Fear rules their existence. Sad, really...
How do you know that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo
From talking with them and from the literature they leave with me.
Are you saying that some JW told you that they are "very frightened," and that "fear rules their existence?"
Sir, anyone acquainted with the teachings of JWs will reject that statement right off the bat.
As to the literature - will you please quote a statement or a portion thereof, from our literature, that says so, or even gives you that impression?
This will give the rest of us the opportunity to evaluate the veracity of your allegations.
Are you saying that some JW told you that they are "very frightened," and that "fear rules their existence?"
Of course not. I've never implied that. They, like you, would never openly admit that to an outsider. But the topics they speak of and the manner of presenting their viewpoint is all too obvious.
Quote:
Sir, anyone acquainted with the teachings of JWs will reject that statement right off the bat.
No one would expect anything else. But the entire premise of the JW faith is based on a select few being saved from some horrible future cataclysm. And that select few will be Jws; others are lost. That's fear in its truest sense.
The brutal truth is that fear is an extremely powerful emotion and most people spend much of their lives in fear of all kinds of things; some real, others imagined. Using that fear to manipulate them is a very common method that certainly isn't exclusive to religious faith of any flavor. Politics and advertising work the same way.
Quote:
As to the literature - will you please quote a statement or a portion thereof, from our literature, that says so, or even gives you that impression?
October 2010 edition of Awake!...
The cover asks, "Who can you TRUST?"
The implied message: Fear your fellow man, unless he's a JW.
Quote:
This will give the rest of us the opportunity to evaluate the veracity of your allegations.
Observations.
Not allegations.
Please offer my greetings to the rest of the group you're speaking for.
Quote:
(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<
Wilson
Years ago, my ex-wife's sister attended a Kingdom Hall for a couple of years. Her brief first marriage had ended. She was lonely, childless, and vulnerable. She sought comfort and companionship. Eventually, she stopped going, because, as she told it to me, she felt that she would never be truly accepted since she was divorced.
She is happily remarried and has a lovely daughter she's very proud of. She and her hubby have been attending their local Methodist church and seem to be well satisfied.
The WT is definitely all about fear. I can't tell you how many times the sister and brothers told me to fear Satan and protect myself against him and to keep coming to the meetings and studying because otherwise Satan would puncture through my protective shell and get to me and manipulate me into things. When I had a male roommate, who I made very clear I was not dating or having sex with, they told me that Satan was trying to tempt me and it was only a matter of time I wouldn't be able to overcome the desire to have sex with him. Never happened.
When I got my vision and hearing back, the JW's I was studying with said it was a blessing from Jehovah and a taste of the New System. But when I ditched them two weeks later, they said that my vision/hearing returning was an attempt from Satan to get me away from Jehovah and that I should come back because the return of my sight/hearing is from the workings of Satan! How is that not fear-based? "If you stay with us, it's Jehovah; if you leave us, it's Satan"? What's that all about? They were just trying to say whatever will keep me studying and eventually get me baptized. They didn't actually really know what was behind my hearing/sight returning.
The whole WT only talks about two possibilities: being safe and protected by Jehovah with Jehovah and love being one's main focus, or being a greedy material-obsessed horny slave to worldly matters and therefore Satan. The WT doesn't even acknowledge the whole group of people that believe in love or God but aren't JW. They act like the only way to feel loved and protected is to be with Jehovah, but there are plenty of people that manage to do just that with either a different theology or no theology at all. Being with Jehovah is not the only way to resist "worldly" matters and the world is not just full of people who are slaves to their own desires, sexual and financial. There are plenty of people who are perfectly fine at dealing with their desires and leading a happy life without being chained to a slew of addictions the way JW's make ALL worldly people out to be. But you'll never hear about those people in the Kingdom Hall. You will only hear about worldly people who's lives are completely ruined by their addictions or worldly people with serious problems who then turned to Jehovah and those problems are now gone. Then they say that it's true that JW's also have problems but they make it pretty clear that Jehovah will definitely make your problems much less and make whatever problems you do have much more manageable, because as they advise, you are supposed to "hand your burdens over to God". But if you don't have Jehovah, then you have no one to give your burdens to.
How is that not fear-based?
Last edited by nimchimpsky; 04-26-2011 at 07:35 AM..
Sure you have! You said they are very frightened and that fear rules their existence - did you not? I asked you how you know that. You wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo From talking with them and from the literature they leave with me.
What are you implying? You talk with somebody and you walk away thinking: "This guy is scared!" And that impression is not from something they said?
I have been a JW from childhood, and I have never felt that fear. I know thousands of witnesses in several countries and I never met a scared one!
You are trying to convey a false impression.
Quote:
They, like you, would never openly admit that to an outsider. But the topics they speak of and the manner of presenting their viewpoint is all too obvious.
So - now we are deceptive!
JWs are not afraid of each other the way Baptists, Catholics and so many others are. In proof of that, a woman at the door told me that her religion is just as good as mine. I asked her a simple question: "Would you leave your handbag on your seat at church and go to the restroom?"
She gave me an emphatic "NO! Never!" I then had the opportunity to explain that anyone can do that at the Kingdom Hall and return to find their property undisturbed and intact.
Now - you tell me which one is better and who has the fear!
Quote:
No one would expect anything else. But the entire premise of the JW faith is based on a select few being saved from some horrible future cataclysm.
You are wrong about the entire premise. It is based on rulership - who has the right to rule this earth. Jehovah's kingdom or form of rulership is mankind's only hope for survival of the troubles to come. Even if they do not come from Jehovah, survival of mankind's disastrous rulership on our own is impossible. We already know who will come out the winner and we want to be on the side of the winner. Is that not the course of wisdom?
About being saved from calamity; Jesus Christ invented that - not us.
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
We are just happy to imitate him.
Quote:
And that select few will be Jws; others are lost. That's fear in its truest sense.
Jehovah is the owner of this earth. As such, he also owns our life. To be a servant of Jehovah, one must bear HIS name.
When Israel turned away from the worship of Jehovah, killing his son in the process, he turned away from them. Where else would future worshippers of his come from? From the non-Israelite nations, of course!
That is why Jesus sent his disciples "into ALL the world!"
“Sym′e·on (Peter) has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah (true worship will be re-established), together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’” (Acts 15:14-18)
Besides us, NOBODY wants to be associated with that "horrible" name.
We bear it with great pride!
Quote:
The brutal truth is that fear is an extremely powerful emotion and most people spend much of their lives in fear of all kinds of things; some real, others imagined. Using that fear to manipulate them is a very common method that certainly isn't exclusive to religious faith of any flavor. Politics and advertising work the same way.
What you do not know is that servants of Jehovah are guaranteed freedom from such fear.
“And so Jesus went on to say to the Jews that had believed him: “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.......Therefore if the Son sets YOU free, YOU will be actually free.” ”” (John 8:31-32, 36)
“. . .For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more. For [the death] that he died, he died with reference to sin once for all time; but [the life] that he lives, he lives with reference to God. 11 Likewise also YOU: reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus.” (Romans 6:9-11)
Yes - even the fear of death has been removed from us and that freedom has enabled us to stand up to tyrants like Hitler, Mussolini, the entire Communist bloc and anyone else who would stand in the way of our obedience to Jehovah.
Look at this promise:
“Any weapon whatever that will be formed against you will have no success, and any tongue at all that will rise up against you in the judgment you will condemn. This is the hereditary possession of the servants of Jehovah, and their righteousness is from me,” is the utterance of Jehovah.” (Isaiah 54:17)
With this kind of assurance, fear of man, and even death, flies out the window!
Quote:
October 2010 edition of Awake!...
The cover asks, "Who can you TRUST?"
The implied message: Fear your fellow man, unless he's a JW.
This is not worth commenting on.
Quote:
Observations.
Not allegations.
Allegations is correct. You alleged that we are a fearful lot. You're wrong!
You know what it takes to go knocking on the doors of strangers?
It could not be done without courage and the help of Holy Spirit.
Quote:
Years ago, my ex-wife's sister attended a Kingdom Hall for a couple of years. Her brief first marriage had ended. She was lonely, childless, and vulnerable. She sought comfort and companionship. Eventually, she stopped going, because, as she told it to me, she felt that she would never be truly accepted since she was divorced.
There may have been another reason. Only Catholics take that position and we are not Catholics.
Quote:
She is happily remarried and has a lovely daughter she's very proud of. She and her hubby have been attending their local Methodist church and seem to be well satisfied.
I wish her well.
Do not be guided by your observations. They might be far off the mark.
Sure you have! You said they are very frightened and that fear rules their existence - did you not? I asked you how you know that. You wrote:
What are you implying? You talk with somebody and you walk away thinking: "This guy is scared!" And that impression is not from something they said?
Get it together.
You're either very confused and unable to recall what either of us has said or you're being deliberately obtuse.
Quote:
I have been a JW from childhood, and I have never felt that fear. I know thousands of witnesses in several countries and I never met a scared one!
You are trying to convey a false impression.
Nope.
I was there. You weren't.
Quote:
So - now we are deceptive!
JWs are not afraid of each other the way Baptists, Catholics and so many others are. In proof of that, a woman at the door told me that her religion is just as good as mine. I asked her a simple question: "Would you leave your handbag on your seat at church and go to the restroom?"
She gave me an emphatic "NO! Never!" I then had the opportunity to explain that anyone can do that at the Kingdom Hall and return to find their property undisturbed and intact.
Now - you tell me which one is better and who has the fear!
You are wrong about the entire premise. It is based on rulership - who has the right to rule this earth. Jehovah's kingdom or form of rulership is mankind's only hope for survival of the troubles to come. Even if they do not come from Jehovah, survival of mankind's disastrous rulership on our own is impossible. We already know who will come out the winner and we want to be on the side of the winner. Is that not the course of wisdom?
About being saved from calamity; Jesus Christ invented that - not us.
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
Fear in your own red emphasis.
Quote:
We are just happy to imitate him.
Jehovah is the owner of this earth. As such, he also owns our life. To be a servant of Jehovah, one must bear HIS name.
When Israel turned away from the worship of Jehovah, killing his son in the process, he turned away from them. Where else would future worshippers of his come from? From the non-Israelite nations, of course!
That is why Jesus sent his disciples "into ALL the world!"
“Sym′e·on (Peter) has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah (true worship will be re-established), together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’” (Acts 15:14-18)
Besides us, NOBODY wants to be associated with that "horrible" name.
We bear it with great pride!
What you do not know is that servants of Jehovah are guaranteed freedom from such fear.
“And so Jesus went on to say to the Jews that had believed him: “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.......Therefore if the Son sets YOU free, YOU will be actually free.” ”” (John 8:31-32, 36)
“. . .For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more. For [the death] that he died, he died with reference to sin once for all time; but [the life] that he lives, he lives with reference to God. 11 Likewise also YOU: reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus.” (Romans 6:9-11)
Yes - even the fear of death has been removed from us and that freedom has enabled us to stand up to tyrants like Hitler, Mussolini, the entire Communist bloc and anyone else who would stand in the way of our obedience to Jehovah.
Admirable actions, no doubt.
Quote:
Look at this promise:
“Any weapon whatever that will be formed against you will have no success, and any tongue at all that will rise up against you in the judgment you will condemn. This is the hereditary possession of the servants of Jehovah, and their righteousness is from me,” is the utterance of Jehovah.” (Isaiah 54:17)
With this kind of assurance, fear of man, and even death, flies out the window!
If you feel that way, then good for you.
Quote:
This is not worth commenting on.
Allegations is correct. You alleged that we are a fearful lot. You're wrong!
In your opinion. You neglected to mention that.
Quote:
You know what it takes to go knocking on the doors of strangers?
Yes I do.
Quote:
It could not be done without courage and the help of Holy Spirit.
Please!
Quote:
There may have been another reason. Only Catholics take that position and we are not Catholics.
I wish her well.
Do not be guided by your observations. They might be far off the mark.
Consider this:
"An Italian Catholic used to get annoyed every time Jehovah’s Witnesses called on him. So when his company transferred him to Singapore, he felt that at last he would not be bothered by them. But to his surprise, the Witnesses were there too. So he obtained two fierce dogs to attack the next Witnesses who came. When two Witnesses called at his home, out jumped those dogs. Terrified, the women ran for their lives, going in different directions at a road junction. As one of the dogs caught up with her, one of the Witnesses desperately grabbed two brochures from her bag and shoved them into the dog’s open mouth. At this, it stopped chasing her, turned around, and trotted home.
The following week, the same two Witnesses were making a return visit at a house across the street. The dogs’ owner was in his garden, and, surprisingly, he greeted the women and invited them into his house. He told them that he had never spoken to Jehovah’s Witnesses or read any of their publications. But he had been amazed to find the brochures in the mouth of one of his dogs. That evening he had read the brochures and was really impressed with them. Although he had been a Catholic all his life, he expressed a desire to study the Bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Since the man was being transferred back to Italy, arrangements were made for Jehovah’s Witnesses to study with him there." .........
As he and his wife started to attend meetings, the parish priest angrily confronted them with threats. When someone set fire to their garden, the couple severed all ties with the church. This man now says: “I have already been witnessing to many of my family members because I want to let them know that Jehovah is the only true God.” (WT 92 1/1 p.7)
(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<
Wilson
This is a typical story that the WT serves up. There is no way of checking its authenticity whatsoever. The JWs believe that its true because the GB are trustworthy and honest and they would never lie in their literature. Except for the fact that they have lied, about their history and their predictions for the end of the system of things. And they have also quoted experts in their literature and deliberately taken their quotes out of context.
Thats enough to make me suspicious of any happy story they relate about someone amazingly getting 'the truth'.
Do you expect us to tithe? If so, then that's too much to ask, too high a price.
I agree!
However, tithing is not a Christian requirement and is not practiced by Jehovah's Witnesses.
No one gets paid a salary and no collection is ever taken.
The work is operated entirely on voluntary contributions.
Over the years it has proven to be quite adequate.
This is a typical story that the WT serves up. There is no way of checking its authenticity whatsoever. The JWs believe that its true because the GB are trustworthy and honest and they would never lie in their literature. Except for the fact that they have lied, about their history and their predictions for the end of the system of things. And they have also quoted experts in their literature and deliberately taken their quotes out of context.
Thats enough to make me suspicious of any happy story they relate about someone amazingly getting 'the truth'.
“. . .Yet if by reason of my lie the truth of God has been made more prominent to his glory, why am I also yet being judged as a sinner?” (Romans 3:7)
Do you know what this means?
(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<
Wilson
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