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Old 03-01-2010, 10:51 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Wen I lived in South Florida, I lived right next door to a Chabad Lubavitch community. Their school and synagogue was literally steps away from my house. Years before when I left Brooklyn, New York, I knew many orthodox Jews but there was something different about this group of religious Jews. They used to drive around in minivans with posters of some old guy claiming he was the Messiah. So I decided to look him up.

My findings led me to a Menachem Mendel Schneerson who happened to be SEVENTH in the line of spiritual leaders of a movement within Judaism known as the Chabad Lubavitch. He led the movement to new modern levels and also wrote and spoke extensively on the Jewish Messiah so when he died in 1994, leaving no children behind, some adherents in the movement began to believe he was the promised messiah of the Jews. This caused deep divisions within the movement since some did not hold this view. This, however, has not stopped those who believe he was and the messianists continue to teach, preach and promote the idea he was as I would see quite often in my old neighborhood.

Some believe he actually died but will return as the revealed messiah while others say he never died and has just gone away or a season and then he will return to make things right and rid the world of evil. Of course, others Jews within Judaism think they are nuts and are nothing more than misguided heretics and of course the sentiment is returned. Court battles, so far, has been the extent of 'persecution."

Where have we heard a similar story before WITHIN the same religion?
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:10 AM
 
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i'm not sure what the point of the opening post is. is it a riddle? is it a leading question?
help us out here Insane

the only thing that occurs to me, there is no such thing as a "Jewish Christian"
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:36 AM
 
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Judaism has no place for messiah worship or the worship of a dead man. It is categorically anti-Jewish to worship a dead man. Throughout Jewish history, at least a dozen false messiahs have come and gone. If you are talking about the people today who claim Schneerson is the Messiah, they fall into that category. If a religion is based on the worship of a dead human being, it is not Judaism.

Is that the parallel the opening post is seeking to make, perhaps? That the religion that calls itself Chrstianity, was started by a bunch of people who started worshipping a dead Jew and claimed that dead guy was God?

Yes, there are parallels. In both cases, neither are Judaism.
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:42 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,311,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
i'm not sure what the point of the opening post is. is it a riddle? is it a leading question?
help us out here Insane
Read it again and connect the dots, Zaph.

Quote:
the only thing that occurs to me, there is no such thing as a "Jewish Christian"
Jews who followed Jesus = Jewish Christians as they were first called in ancient Antioch as per the Book of Acts. Might have been an anachronistic application (which would not surprise me), but I think you know what I was trying to say. I realize that in today's world it is believed [by some] that you can't be both a Jew and a Christian at the same time, but clearly some believe this is possible as in Jews who follow the [biblical] "Christ" aka, Jews for Jesus.
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:49 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Is that the parallel the opening post is seeking to make, perhaps? That the religion that calls itself Chrstianity, was started by a bunch of people who started worshipping a dead Jew and claimed that dead guy was God?

Yes, there are parallels. In both cases, neither are Judaism.
Now you got it!

I understand that those who stand within the walls of classic Judaism will say neither are, however, I guess it is similar to how Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are viewed by mainstream Christianity. They are not considered True Christians, hence heretics outside the sphere much the same way the Chabads are viewed by others in Judaism despite what they say or where they derived from.
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:54 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Oh, the parallel that I was hoping would be noticed is that here we have a group arising OUT OF classical Judaism that set their sights on a man within their faith to label the messiah. He died, but they claim he is alive or is dead and will return to ransom the Jewish people. The orthodox decry them as heretics but they press on with their delusion and even thrive despite despite the mockery. They think the mainstream are blind and the mainstream thinks they are nuts.

Christianity arising out of ancient Judaism had a similar path and hold to similiar views surrounding an individual.
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Jews who followed Jesus = Jewish Christians as they were first called in ancient Antioch. I realize that in today's world it is believed [by some] that you can't be both a Jew and a Christian at the same time, but clearly some believe this is possible as in Jews who follow the [biblical] "Christ" aka, Jews for Jesus.
there is no such thing as a Jewish Christian

Groups such as "Jews for Jesus" and "Messianic Judaism" are Christian groups, that are funded, backed, and organized by Chrisitans. No branch of Judaism anywhere on the spectrum (from Reform to Conservative to Orthodox to Reconstruction to Renewal), recognizes or accepts groups such as "Jews for Jesus" and "Messianic Judaism". Those groups are uniformly rejected by all branches of Judaism.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 03-01-2010 at 12:08 PM..
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Christianity arising out of ancient Judaism had a similar path and hold to similiar views surrounding an individual.
yes, and neither are Jewish. And both are rejected by ALL branches of Judaism.
Jews don't worship dead people.
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:28 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
yes, and neither are Jewish. And both are rejected by ALL branches of Judaism.
Jews don't worship dead people.
I don't blame them at all, but that would mean...
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Read it again and connect the dots, Zaph.



Jews who followed Jesus = Jewish Christians as they were first called in (..)
(le-havdil), A analysis (found here: Netzarim (Hellenized "Nazarene"): Orthodox Israeli Jews, Ra'anana, Israel (that is the only legitimate Netzarim)) of all extant source documents and archaeology using a rational and logical methodology proves that the historical Ribi Yehosuha ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah) from Nazareth and his talmidim (apprentice-students), called the Netzarim, taught and lived Torah all of their lives; and that Netzarim and Christianity were always antithetical.

Judaism and Christianity have always been two antithetical religions, and thus the term “Jewish Christians” is an oxymoron
.
The mitzwot (directives or military-style orders) in Torah (claimed in Tan’’kh (the Jewish Bible) to be the instructions of the Creator), the core of the Judaism, are an indivisible whole. Rejecting any one constitutes rejecting of the whole… and the Church rejected many mitzwot, for example rejecting to observe the Shabat on the seventh day in the Jewish week. Examples are endless. Dt. 13.1-6 explicitly precludes the Christian “NT”.

Ribi Yehoshuas talmidim Netzarim still observes Torah non-selectively to their utmost today and the research in the above website implies that becoming one of Ribi Yehoshuas Netzarim-followers is the only way to follow him.
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