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Old 03-10-2010, 10:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Aren't you doing the same thing? How do you know what God will say?

No, I am not doing the same thing. I am just saying for all the arrogance of Christians to say they are the only ones saved, wouldn't they be surprised to get to heaven and see a bunch of other people there who are not Christian. I believe G-d has a place for all his children be they Jew or non-Jew. Its the Christians who say all but them are going to hell. I have never said that. I believe in a loving and giving G-d who loves all his children not just one group. So I suppose if you can say how do I know, then I guess how do you know? Because what I believe comes from my Hebrew Bible, just as what you believe comes from your Bible.
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Old 03-10-2010, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Believing that God exists is not the issue. All of humankind has been programmed by God to know that he exists (see Ecc 3:11b; Romans 1:19-20; 2:15, Psalm 19: 1-4). James 2:19 tells us that even demons believe that there is one God (See Mark 1:23-24). So belief in the existence of God is NOT sufficient for salvation. You must believe IN Jesus Christ.

To believe IN someone means that you earnestly follow every word and order your life after that person. Hebrews 11:6 says that you must not only believe that God exists, but that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. It is this diligence that captures what the "IN" is referring to. "Believe" also means "trust". When you trust in Jesus, you lean upon Him and not upon your own understanding [Proverbs 3:5-6]
Regarding your statement bolded above...Wrong. If that were true why do I and millions of other atheists believe all the god stories to be nothing more than myths created by men in order to gain power, wealth and control of others?
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Regarding your statement bolded above...Wrong. If that were true why do I and millions of other atheists believe all the god stories to be nothing more than myths created by men in order to gain power, wealth and control of others?
Because they are stories ABOUT God . . . and most of them quite unbelievable. However, belief in the EXISTENCE requires none of that so you do and just accept it as "Nature."
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Because they are stories ABOUT God . . . and most of them quite unbelievable. However, belief in the EXISTENCE requires none of that so you do and just accept it as "Nature."
You idea that nature = god for an atheist is strange and mistaken in my opinion.. I believe in no creator, no guided design and no god....I'm quite comfortable saying "I don't know how the universe came to be". Anybody who says anything else is only speculating, regardless of what name they give it.
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
You idea that nature = god for an atheist is strange and mistaken in my opinion.. I believe in no creator, no guided design and no god....I'm quite comfortable saying "I don't know how the universe came to be". Anybody who says anything else is only speculating, regardless of what name they give it.
How can you say there is no creation in the face of so much generic Creation? What else is it if not Creation? Creation requires a Creator . . yours happens to be "Nature."
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
How can you say there is no creation in the face of so much generic Creation? What else is it if not Creation? Creation requires a Creator . . yours happens to be "Nature."
As I said any opinion of how the universe and all it entails came to be is so far unknown....Your opinion is only speculation. Perhaps you are correct in saying it is the creation of nature, but nature is not guided by any intelligent force, and is certainly not equivalent to what you call god. If it were there would be fewer mistakes I think.
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
As I said any opinion of how the universe and all it entails came to be is so far unknown....Your opinion is only speculation. Perhaps you are correct in saying it is the creation of nature, but nature is not guided by any intelligent force, and is certainly not equivalent to what you call god. If it were there would be fewer mistakes I think.
If it is NOT chaotic it is directed . . . you are free to consider that direction a low order of intelligence but it exists. There is no precedent in human experience for perfection . . so why do you posit it as a basis for dismissing a Creator? (I know . . , all those "stories" ABOUT God that bug you so).
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
If it is NOT chaotic it is directed . . . you are free to consider that direction a low order of intelligence but it exists. There is no precedent in human experience for perfection . . so why do you posit it as a basis for dismissing a Creator? (I know . . , all those "stories" ABOUT God that bug you so).
Actually your "stories" about the directed intelligence of nature I find much stranger than any god stories, and just as speculative that "it" exists. Neither the god stories nor your universal consciousness/guided nature speculation bug me. Why should it? Everyone is entitled to whatever it is they want to believe. I believe that nature/evolution guides itself, no intelligence required.
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Old 03-10-2010, 02:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Actually your "stories" about the directed intelligence of nature I find much stranger than any god stories, and just as speculative that "it" exists. Neither the god stories nor your universal consciousness/guided nature speculation bug me. Why should it? Everyone is entitled to whatever it is they want to believe. I believe that nature/evolution guides itself, no intelligence required.
Self-direction, correction and guidance is a trait of intelligent systems.
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Self-direction, correction and guidance is a trait of intelligent systems.
It is also a trait of evolution/nature.
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