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Old 03-07-2010, 02:23 PM
 
Location: missouri
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Thanks for the precision insistence as that makes this even more interesting to me. One, it seems to me, still has to account then for being a finite being-bounded, rather than extended, in temporal time, for a moment, and then to have existed in infinite time around this momentary life-before birth and after death. One, it would seem would have to assume that time eternal is the same as time temporal in order to get the finite to exist always, right? So is the two "times" actually one? And if so, why are there these different places, such as dream reality or worlds, is time the same there? Time is a constant in all of them? I am finite but have an eternal existence? Are the bodily structures the same in a before birth world as it is now, in the dream movements? Thanks
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Old 03-07-2010, 07:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
Thanks for the precision insistence as that makes this even more interesting to me. One, it seems to me, still has to account then for being a finite being-bounded, rather than extended, in temporal time, for a moment, and then to have existed in infinite time around this momentary life-before birth and after death. One, it would seem would have to assume that time eternal is the same as time temporal in order to get the finite to exist always, right? So is the two "times" actually one? And if so, why are there these different places, such as dream reality or worlds, is time the same there? Time is a constant in all of them? I am finite but have an eternal existence? Are the bodily structures the same in a before birth world as it is now, in the dream movements? Thanks

the only time is NOW, the moment, that is the only time that exists wether it is in a dream or on another world or on the highest existance of reality it will always be now but yes we are bound to temporary existance and yes i beleive time is eternal as it is another manifestation of one of Gods energys and it is the destroyer of worlds.and i dont think that the bodily structures are the same ,this is planet earth and our bodys are made from the gross elements of this world where as on another planet made say of fire like the sun then the bodily structures would be made say of fire,

it is said that these bodys and worlds are like dreams compaired to the more real world that is of our eternal nature and that when we wake up it'll be like wakin from a dream, and what would have been a million billion lifetimes on the temporary material plain will seem like a flash just like when you wake from a dream, you were there as someone else living some other life somewhere else and then you wake and after a few seconds it just becomes a blur and the dream body you were in is forgoten about and you start living your real life.
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Old 03-07-2010, 07:42 PM
 
Location: missouri
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It just seems like a contradiction to me that I can't get around-and perhaps I can not grasp this thing; although it is very interesting, paradoxes usually are. I can not confuse infinity with the eternal, but I can be finite and temporal. To be temporal in time which is bounded, my birth and death, and finite in space-I end where the other begins; I am both finite and temporal-these two, as temporal qualities, seem to me to be coupled in some fashion and interdependent. Then to be in the eternal, would seem to require infinite qualities as well-unbounded in both unbounded space and an unbounded time, and then these two would also be coupled and interdependent; to keep this balanced, finite/temporal vs infinite/eternal, ie, one needs a space and time that fits the temporal and another that fits the eternal-it seems to me one needs two "time and space" concepts. It would seem I am being told that I can be-or that I am eternal (we've always existed), but still have finite or temporal qualities. Anyway that is as far as I have gotten so far.
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Old 03-08-2010, 04:48 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
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Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
i do agree with oime of the stuff your saying there but i still think there is a factor or two that your not gettin ,one of the things u said there and o quote "until it reaches its goal in fulfiment of the Fathers plan for the perfecting of his universe "unquote
How long do you think it takes to perfect the consioussness ? and i use the word consioussness and not soul because the soul in its reality is pure, but it is our consioussness that is not, due to our conditioning and contact with material nature but anyway this line explains it all that God has a plan for us all ,that one day his universe will be perfected because thats what our original state is, "be perfect because your heavenly father is perfect"-Jesus.and why would he say that if he didnt think we could be perfect ?because we can thats why, but it can take a long time or it can be done in onelifetime.
Perfection depends on the soul and it's intent. A person who is open minded and not confined to a set of beliefs will progress faster than one who is closed minded.
Yes, it is the Christ Consciousness that we are to obtain.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
the second point is, is that your forgetting the soul is diffrent from the spirit the spirit which is consioussness is a symptom of the soul, the soul is atomic in size and spreads out throghout the body as consioussness, the soul is small enough that it can fit into any body, moving or non moving, it thespreads out thru the body as spirit so the spirit can change as it enters different bodys but the soul remains the same wheather we are aware of it or not.
No, I never sais the soul and spirit are the same. They are different. The soul is the real you and the spirit body protects the soul. The spirit manifests the thoughts of the human and when you enter the spirit world, your thoughts will create your surroundings and the appearance of your spirit self.


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Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
the other thing is ,is that you seem to refere the soul as something you have like a part of your body or something but i think this makes it a bit impersonal,(and i could be wrong hear so correct me if i am)but instead of thinkin this soul is something you have try think it as im a soul that possesses a body and not the other way around.What we are is soul, although we have ego and mind and intellagence and the senses and consioussness and stuff the very essence of that being is a soul and its the love that comes from us souls that makes us what we are these souls arent born and dont die they've always existed ,how come? because they are a part of god, we are the same energy the same in quality but not in quantity but never on the same level,as God, we will always be sub-serviant to God, he is the centre of the whole universe and it is every living entitys duty to serve this absolute supreme personality of Godhead,we are all apart of the godhead, just like the fire and the spark that comes from the fire, it is of the same quality as the fire but it is diffrent in quantity ,the spark dont exist without the fire or another example is the ocean and a drop of water from the ocean, He is the whole ocean while we are the drops he is the whole while we are the parts like a clock every part on it is there to serve the whole ,just like our bodys and when we serve the centre like putting food in your stomach the whole body is served,and since this soul is made from the same eternal spiritual nature as gods there fore it is eternal and has always existed in some form mindfull of it or not.
The soul "wears" the material body while you are here. This material body is only good for this existance. Once your soul leaves at death, you will never inhabit this, or any other, human body again because we have completed the job of this existance. We can progress in the spirit world and there is no need to come back to do something over. We can correct all mistakes in the spirit world. God designed it that way.

Each of us is a piece to the large puzzle. We are not complete until we all come together. People create seperateness by not being love. Once we all get back to the love we were created for, the puzzle will be complete.

God created us from Himself. We are not a part of God, only a creation of God. We will never be God but we can become like God in all attributes. This can only be done by praying for Divine Love, which is the substance of God. When we acquire enough Divine Love, we are no longer an image, we become the likeness or Christs.
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Old 03-08-2010, 06:37 AM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,931,821 times
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Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
It just seems like a contradiction to me that I can't get around-and perhaps I can not grasp this thing; although it is very interesting, paradoxes usually are. I can not confuse infinity with the eternal, but I can be finite and temporal. To be temporal in time which is bounded, my birth and death, and finite in space-I end where the other begins; I am both finite and temporal-these two, as temporal qualities, seem to me to be coupled in some fashion and interdependent. Then to be in the eternal, would seem to require infinite qualities as well-unbounded in both unbounded space and an unbounded time, and then these two would also be coupled and interdependent; to keep this balanced, finite/temporal vs infinite/eternal, ie, one needs a space and time that fits the temporal and another that fits the eternal-it seems to me one needs two "time and space" concepts. It would seem I am being told that I can be-or that I am eternal (we've always existed), but still have finite or temporal qualities. Anyway that is as far as I have gotten so far.
there are 2 worlds existing at the moment ,no.1 is the material world which is actually billions of universes and in each of these there is the upper,lower and middle planetary systems, all of these worlds are temporary and finite .no.2 is the spiritual world which is a universe that is ever expanding and made of pure spirit this universe is where every living entity came from, it is said that in this universe the planets are self illuminating and on each planet you will find an expansion of god, all of his avatars exist eternally on these worlds and sometimes they come down to the material plane to restore balance in the world,god never takes on one of these material bodys but always appears in his transcendental body which is never affected bye the modes of material nature, jesus however did take on one of these material bodys but he was the son of god and not the supreme personality as such.

it can be hard trying to understand something that is infinate since our own minds are only finite, we see everything as a start a middle and an end and since evreything in this universe has a start middle and an end the mind struggles to see past that, but it is our hearts that can understand eternity since our hearts are of the same nature as the eternal
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:01 AM
 
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[quote=Reverend1111;13202096]Perfection depends on the soul and it's intent. A person who is open minded and not confined to a set of beliefs will progress faster than one who is closed minded.
Yes, it is the Christ Consciousness that we are to obtain.
Quote:
.
it seems to me that it is most christians who are narrow minded after all would you learn from any other scripture than the bible?




No, I never sais the soul and spirit are the same. They are different. The soul is the real you and the spirit body protects the soul. The spirit manifests the thoughts of the human and when you enter the spirit world, your thoughts will create your surroundings and the appearance of your spirit self.[quote]
Quote:
.
im not too sure if thoughts can create surrondings maybe in a dream but not in reality, but it is the consioussness of the individual in this lifetime that will create the body in the next, those who are too ignorant will more than likely take on the body of an animal those who are pious will attain the heavenly planets but those who are transcendendal who have accheived liberation can leave the material world and enter the spiritual world and never have to return again




The soul "wears" the material body while you are here. This material body is only good for this existance. Once your soul leaves at death, you will never inhabit this, or any other, human body again because we have completed the job of this existance. We can progress in the spirit world and there is no need to come back to do something over. We can correct all mistakes in the spirit world. God designed it that way.[quote]
Quote:
.
how can a child that dies at birth or a young age complete this existanse or a child born handicaped, did god design it in such a way that life be so unfair

Each of us is a piece to the large puzzle. We are not complete until we all come together. People create seperateness by not being love. Once we all get back to the love we were created for, the puzzle will be complete. [quote]
Quote:
.
i totally agree with you there

God created us from Himself. We are not a part of God, only a creation of God. We will never be God but we can become like God in all attributes. This can only be done by praying for Divine Love, which is the substance of God. When we acquire enough Divine Love, we are no longer an image, we become the likeness or Christs.
Quote:
.
if god created us from himself then that would make us a part of him no!do you know anybody who accheived the divine consioussness just bye praying for it as i said it is the ultimate goal of life it is not easily accheived ........

Last edited by dobeable; 03-08-2010 at 07:10 AM..
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 5,133,264 times
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[quote=dobeable;13202947][quote=Reverend1111;13202096]Perfection depends on the soul and it's intent. A person who is open minded and not confined to a set of beliefs will progress faster than one who is closed minded.
Yes, it is the Christ Consciousness that we are to obtain.

it seems to me that it is most christians who are narrow minded after all would you learn from any other scripture than the bible?




No, I never sais the soul and spirit are the same. They are different. The soul is the real you and the spirit body protects the soul. The spirit manifests the thoughts of the human and when you enter the spirit world, your thoughts will create your surroundings and the appearance of your spirit self.[quote]

im not too sure if thoughts can create surrondings maybe in a dream but not in reality, but it is the consioussness of the individual in this lifetime that will create the body in the next, those who are too ignorant will more than likely take on the body of an animal those who are pious will attain the heavenly planets but those who are transcendendal who have accheived liberation can leave the material world and enter the spiritual world and never have to return again




The soul "wears" the material body while you are here. This material body is only good for this existance. Once your soul leaves at death, you will never inhabit this, or any other, human body again because we have completed the job of this existance. We can progress in the spirit world and there is no need to come back to do something over. We can correct all mistakes in the spirit world. God designed it that way.[quote]

how can a child that dies at birth or a young age complete this existanse or a child born handicaped, did god design it in such a way that life be so unfair

Each of us is a piece to the large puzzle. We are not complete until we all come together. People create seperateness by not being love. Once we all get back to the love we were created for, the puzzle will be complete.
Quote:

i totally agree with you there

God created us from Himself. We are not a part of God, only a creation of God. We will never be God but we can become like God in all attributes. This can only be done by praying for Divine Love, which is the substance of God. When we acquire enough Divine Love, we are no longer an image, we become the likeness or Christs.

if god created us from himself then that would make us a part of him no!do you know anybody who accheived the divine consioussness just bye praying for it as i said it is the ultimate goal of life it is not easily accheived ........
Yes, there are resources than the bible. How do you think I learned? I read the bible and it didn't answer my questions. People I asked skirted around the answer. Apparently, the bible can't give people all the answers. I chose to go elsewhere and the church and belief set I chose answered my questions. If I have one they can't answer, they tell me to go directly to God. They teach instead of preach. They al know that perfection comes from the New Birth of the soul.

A child who dies at birth has acquired it's individuality. The life experience is not necessary although it can be taught in the spirit world. The child will just not have the hands on experience. In a child who is mentally deformed, it's soul is the real self and in the spirit world, that child will be whole. The soul never loses it's wholeness no matter what this life does. life is not unfair. Our fall from grace caused all the mental and physical problems we have today. We will come out of it and eventually be a planet where no dis-eases or deformities exist.

The one person on earth who attained the Christ Consciousness is Jeshua ben Joseph. He showed all that we could attain the same thing. Because people misunderstood Him and His mission, He was killed. In the spirit world, there are countless former humans who have attained Christ Consciousness. By praying for and receiving Divine Love, we can all become Christs. This is what Jesus' message was about.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:27 AM
 
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Yes, there are resources than the bible. How do you think I learned? I read the bible and it didn't answer my questions. People I asked skirted around the answer. Apparently, the bible can't give people all the answers. I chose to go elsewhere and the church and belief set I chose answered my questions. If I have one they can't answer, they tell me to go directly to God. They teach instead of preach. They al know that perfection comes from the New Birth of the soul.

A child who dies at birth has acquired it's individuality. The life experience is not necessary although it can be taught in the spirit world. The child will just not have the hands on experience. In a child who is mentally deformed, it's soul is the real self and in the spirit world, that child will be whole. The soul never loses it's wholeness no matter what this life does. life is not unfair. Our fall from grace caused all the mental and physical problems we have today. We will come out of it and eventually be a planet where no dis-eases or deformities exist.

The one person on earth who attained the Christ Consciousness is Jeshua ben Joseph. He showed all that we could attain the same thing. Because people misunderstood Him and His mission, He was killed. In the spirit world, there are countless former humans who have attained Christ Consciousness. By praying for and receiving Divine Love, we can all become Christs. This is what Jesus' message was about.[/quote]

its good that you can look for other recourses than the bible, i myself was born into a christian family but found that their were a lot of misconceptions being thought like eternal hell and stuff, a fear based philosophy, people were turning to god out of fear and not love but anyway you still hav'nt asked yourself why people are suffering,and alot of that suffering is due to where your born ,what kind of a family yuor born into and stuff, you could have a father or mother that beats you evreyday or a father and mother that loves you everyday,could be born into a rich family and never have to worrie about money or be born into a poverty stricken condition and struggle every day to survive, so my question is this-if this our first and only life on the material plane then why is god punishing one person more than the other?look around there are children starving to death right now as we type whats the diffrence between tham and us ,the only logical awnser is that weve existed in previous lifetimes and we accumulate karma then according to our past activities we receive a body and a place of birth to live out our karma,besides all this karma which is just universal justice, their is Gods mercy,instead of getting 3 slaps on the hand which we deserve we might only get 2, so theres mercy being poured out aswell,i think there is a verse in the bible that jesus said"he who is first in this world will be last in the next and he who is last will be first" something like that anyway so every starving child today could have once been a rich king and maybe due to his lack of pious activities, maybe he had the power to save many a starving child and did'nt,so this king must be born into his current fate.

i dont think that the only person on earth that acheived God consioussness was Jeshua ben Joseph that would be just ignorant to think that since no one knows everyone on the planet but yes they are a rarety,out of the 6 billion people in the world there might be just a handfull that will actually accheive such liberation but in time which is needed for the process every livin g entity will acheive perfection
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
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Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
its good that you can look for other recourses than the bible, i myself was born into a christian family but found that their were a lot of misconceptions being thought like eternal hell and stuff, a fear based philosophy, people were turning to god out of fear and not love but anyway you still hav'nt asked yourself why people are suffering,and alot of that suffering is due to where your born ,what kind of a family yuor born into and stuff, you could have a father or mother that beats you evreyday or a father and mother that loves you everyday,could be born into a rich family and never have to worrie about money or be born into a poverty stricken condition and struggle every day to survive, so my question is this-if this our first and only life on the material plane then why is god punishing one person more than the other?look around there are children starving to death right now as we type whats the diffrence between tham and us ,the only logical awnser is that weve existed in previous lifetimes and we accumulate karma then according to our past activities we receive a body and a place of birth to live out our karma,besides all this karma which is just universal justice, their is Gods mercy,instead of getting 3 slaps on the hand which we deserve we might only get 2, so theres mercy being poured out aswell,i think there is a verse in the bible that jesus said"he who is first in this world will be last in the next and he who is last will be first" something like that anyway so every starving child today could have once been a rich king and maybe due to his lack of pious activities, maybe he had the power to save many a starving child and did'nt,so this king must be born into his current fate..
We live in a world that went through a long rebellion. We have been through hell and we are learning to overcome the effects of that time. It will take time to rebuild that which was destroyed. Bad things happen to good people because of it. We do to ourselves that which we have been taught and innocents sometimes get caught in the middle. We are in the Correcting Times. That means there are people working on the planet to bring harmony and peace. There are literally millions. I am one of them. We don't need reincarnation to learn from our mistakes. All it takes it a loving attitude towards another. It's so simple yet too many people think that "an eye for an eye" is what you have to do. That isn't so. You get more positive reactions through love. What this planet has been through is by our own choosing. We choose good or we choose bad. That choice will lead to and effect. Always. We will reap what we sow whether it's good or bad. Sometimes those bad choices affect the innocent and they get harmed. It could have been generations ago but the expediation has to occur at some time.
In my own experience, I'm one who lived with abuse most of my childhood. I left home when I was 15 and don't regret one minute. I learned the hard way how to live in the world without being of it. I don't need reincarnation to correct the mistakes of my past or my parents past. It can happen now.

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Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
i dont think that the only person on earth that acheived God consioussness was Jeshua ben Joseph that would be just ignorant to think that since no one knows everyone on the planet but yes they are a rarety,out of the 6 billion people in the world there might be just a handfull that will actually accheive such liberation but in time which is needed for the process every livin g entity will acheive perfection
You may be right but He's the only one I know of. There are some great yogi's and mystics out there that aren't in the spotlight. Some may be pretty close. I do know that when one becomes a Christ, that material body does not go through a normal death. So maybe we've just never heard of any more. I have been told however, that there are none on earth right now.
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Old 03-08-2010, 04:44 PM
 
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We live in a world that went through a long rebellion. We have been through hell and we are learning to overcome the effects of that time. It will take time to rebuild that which was destroyed. Bad things happen to good people because of it. We do to ourselves that which we have been taught and innocents sometimes get caught in the middle. We are in the Correcting Times. That means there are people working on the planet to bring harmony and peace. There are literally millions. I am one of them. We don't need reincarnation to learn from our mistakes. All it takes it a loving attitude towards another. It's so simple yet too many people think that "an eye for an eye" is what you have to do. That isn't so. You get more positive reactions through love. What this planet has been through is by our own choosing. We choose good or we choose bad. That choice will lead to and effect. Always. We will reap what we sow whether it's good or bad. Sometimes those bad choices affect the innocent and they get harmed. It could have been generations ago but the expediation has to occur at some time.
In my own experience, I'm one who lived with abuse most of my childhood. I left home when I was 15 and don't regret one minute. I learned the hard way how to live in the world without being of it. I don't need reincarnation to correct the mistakes of my past or my parents past. It can happen now.



You may be right but He's the only one I know of. There are some great yogi's and mystics out there that aren't in the spotlight. Some may be pretty close. I do know that when one becomes a Christ, that material body does not go through a normal death. So maybe we've just never heard of any more. I have been told however, that there are none on earth right now.
i dont think that anything i say is goin to make you beleive in this system and im not writing all this to try make people beleive because people beleive what they beleive anyway and ive alot of respect towards you and your opinion, i just want to express the sense in this system of life, you see not everyone is good there is alot of evil in the world and this evil is due to ignorance so instead of trowing everyone in hell god will place them into a life that befits there consiossness and this in itself is mercy,just think there is some mad maniac murderer out there, his mind is haunted with evil but then comes the day when he leaves his body,what to do with him?well God might see it fit that this man can no longer occupy a human body, hes too destructive so instead he places him in the body of an animal, a lion lets say, now he can kill all he wants and there will be no disturbances in his mind,there are so many species and all are at different levels of consiossness

"you reap what you sow" karma,but what happens when one sow's so much in one lifetime that not all can be reaped, there are many people that get away with murder and human trafficking and all sorts, sure look at hitler, there is no earthly sentance that could nullify all the wrong doings he commited, but he still needs to learn,he is still a soul but because of his great ignorance and lack of love towards humans he must be punished somehow punished so he can learn.if you let a child go unchecked for years the child can end up spoiled and think he can do whatever he likes and this will be bad for the child because if he acts negative then he'll be reaping negativity.

this system is one of love, God wants us all to come home back to him he remembers our original state of being which is pure bliss and perfect, we have forgoten it but because everyone is on different levels then the process of reincarnation must take place, we fell into the material plane and it is us that have to make it out and it is said that the human form is the gateway to the spiritual world,on the heavenly planets there is too much enjoyment and on the hellish planets there is too much pain but here in the middle planetary system earth there is just the right balance for spiritual cultivation, but i dont think that everyone will go there after this life.

you say we choose good and we choose bad but do them people choose to be born into those miserable conditions no one would choose that so it must be a punishment to some extent but that dosnt mean that we dont show commpassion and help whenever we can for it is in our spiritual nature to do so,but most of the time we are helpless to help certain people but just like any prison sentance someday it will be over and the freedom from that pain will be so uplifting and liberating and there will be something there in their consioussness that tells them to do good and not bad because good karma brings good results and bad brings bad but none of this works without reincarnation because people are on different levels but i think it is good that you are one of those people trying to make the world a better place or at least giving your best so you have my best regards.
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