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Ask a Jewish person why, when reading Isaiah in temple, Chapter 53 isn't read.
It'd be interesting to see what you discover.
Ask yourself, a Christian person, in what way Jesus lead all the Jews back to Israel, a time of world peace was ushered in, and all believed and understood there was one God, and suffering ended.
ETA: The problem is that the Messiah must achieve *all* of the prophecies in order to be the Messiah. The Jewish Messiah. Jesus didn't. He seems to have done a few; a few he left out; a few are argued as being "not literal" (but still fall flat because even when people personally accept Jesus, suffering is certainly not ended for them...not even in an internal and personal way...MUCH less a worldwide way). This only makes sense...as otherwise, people would believe false prophets. That's why *all* messianic prophecy must be met in order for one to be the Messiah. Otherwise, you're getting someone who perhaps "came close" but isn't the Messiah, and according to the Bible, God doesn't want people lead astray. As I understand it.
Ask yourself, a Christian person, in what way Jesus lead all the Jews back to Israel, a time of world peace was ushered in, and all believed and understood there was one God, and suffering ended.
Well I had to go back to your website so I could see where you were getting your arguments for this.
Your website source for these 'issues' states the following
Quote:
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.
Let me make sure I can get you and I to agree on something here.
Basically, this website's dismissal of my belief that Jesus will still fulfill these prophecies is "Every prophecy should have been fulfilled at one time and then all are either filled or all are not filled". Right JerZ? Because according to this then, the instant the Jews Messiah does show up, ALL prophecies will be fulfilled. In one instant, right? Not a process. Not God and His Messiah working in concert towards total fulfillment....but all or nothing and all in unison, right?
Well I had to go back to your website so I could see where you were getting your arguments for this.
Your website source for these 'issues' states the following
Let me make sure I can get you and I to agree on something here.
Basically, this website's dismissal of my belief that Jesus will still fulfill these prophecies is "Every prophecy should have been fulfilled at one time and then all are either filled or all are not filled". Right JerZ? Because according to this then, the instant the Jews Messiah does show up, ALL prophecies will be fulfilled. In one instant, right? Not a process. Not God and His Messiah working in concert towards total fulfillment....but all or nothing and all in unison, right?
Thoughts?
First of all, it's not "my" website.
I didn't have to dig around to find this stuff. It was literally the first Google search I found. This is apparently Jewish belief. It's backed up afterward by many others who are all apparently saying the same thing. Men who *did* study this stuff, in original language, from the age of, I don't know, 9, 10, 11 in preparation for a Bar or Bat Mitzvah. As opposed to you and I, who have read English translations and who haven't grown up in an atmosphere concentrating on the OT anywhere NEAR as much as the NT and all the "changes". So who's the one likely to have more knowledge on this subject? A rabbi who has studied these words literally all his life? Or you and I, who went to church and who don't know a lick of Hebrew or Greek?
And yes, if the Messiah had to come twice, I do think it would have been mentioned in the Bible, which is otherwise very specific on the issue of the Messiah. It is very specific *so that a false prophet can be spotted*. Do YOU actually think God would wait a couple thousand years or more between the coming of the Messiah and the fulfillment, given that God is trying to tell people how to spot a true v. a false prophet? That wouldn't make any sense.
Not to even mention that you're again going on supposition and theory. "Just because it doesn't say so doesn't mean it isn't true." That's theory. Your own theory. It supports your own belief. And that's fine. It doesn't support Jewish belief, the belief of the people for whom this book (OT) was actually written. That's okay. It means that you have *your* messiah, but not the *Jewish* messiah.
I don't know how to make it all any more clear than that, and now that you're pulling out "maybe it meant this" or "maybe it just didn't mention that", these are obviously not supportable arguments, so I'm not sure how you want me to answer. With theories of my own? Theories won't change the way the OT was written, and theories won't make me wrong and you right, or you wrong and me right. So I don't get how you're expecting me to answer here.
Alpha, thank you for sharing the Truth. One of the things that Yeshua came to do was to show those who were lost in man's law the Way.
More information can be found here:
The Messiah from Scripture (http://p208.ezboard.com/ffinalauthority48270frm39.showMessage?topicID=42.t opic - broken link)
I don't know how to make it all any more clear than that, and now that you're pulling out "maybe it meant this" or "maybe it just didn't mention that", these are obviously not supportable arguments, so I'm not sure how you want me to answer. With theories of my own? Theories won't change the way the OT was written, and theories won't make me wrong and you right, or you wrong and me right. So I don't get how you're expecting me to answer here.
Where did I say 'maybe' anything?
Ah, don't worry about responding. I've said all I have/need to say.
I just realized that my posts are probably for those reading and not posting vs. those posting and not reading.
CelticLady, you are selling God so short. So short.
Even God has things that He knows that He chooses not to know.
Remember??
Our sins????
Jeremiah 31:34, Hebrews 8:11-12, Hebrews 10:17.
This is elementary stuff.
God knows our sins but willingly chooses NOT to remember them.
If God is God, then God is God. He doesn't play by our rules, He isn't limited by our limitations, He doesn't think like we do, and we sure are not going to 'figure Him out', if you or I could figure Him out, He sure wouldn't be much of a God.
I'm in awe of His greatness and glory and seems like so many want to bring Him down to our level.
For the record, I'm so glad God is bigger than anyone here gives Him credit for being, including myself.
Actually, I'm not selling God short, contrary to your opinion. What I am doing, is asking the same questions that all non-believers, and most Christians ask, concerning the Trinity, (or any other questions that come up). I am not afraid to state that there are alot things that aren't very logical to me, (and apparently to a whole lot of other people), and that I have a problem with.
And yes, I "remember" "the elementary stuff", thanks. But, God not remembering our sins has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument at hand, which is how the Trinity works, (or if it even does), and whether it makes sense, and if even many Christians have a problem with it, then it seems certain that non-believers are going to figure that Christians are arguing in some really loopy circles, in order to "prove" it.
The one thing we can agree on, is that our Creator is indeed, bigger than anyone gives him credit for.
If polytheism is the belief in multiple gods, does not Christianity fall into that catagory? And if that is the case, did Jesus contradict himself when he told his followes to serve on the one true God which in heaven?
Christianity seems very complicated to me. Three gods in one, pray in this one's name, let the other one lead you, etc. In the case of Christianity, why would god make religion of the ability of man on earth to serve him? I my opinion and from the way that I see view God, he is not complicated. Things are as they are, so why would God ordain controversial and contratictory religion (Christianity) to be the "true" religion of the world?
Oh gosh, I have been a christian, believer, follower for way over forty years , and this debate is neverending IMO,IMO, there is ONE God. Christ is the son. The holy spirit dwells within us and is our link or Spirit guide between ourselves and God the Father, and Christ the son. We go through Christ to reach the father. I could never understand what is so complicated about that. Anyway I am satisfied with my faith and God is pleased
JerZ... it's said that answering a question with a question is a diversionary tactic used when one doesn't know the anwer to the original question. (whew)
Is that why you didn't answer the question about Isaiah 53?
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With theories of my own? Theories won't change the way the OT was written, and theories won't make me wrong and you right, or you wrong and me right. So I don't get how you're expecting me to answer here.
