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Old 03-03-2010, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Those who have a real, genuine, personal relationship with Jesus would never be arrogant about their faith. We understand that we are sinners saved by the grace of God alone. We have nothing to be arrogant about.
There isn't necessarily something arrogant about having faith. The arrogance is when folk say they have a personal relationship with Jesus, but not religion, but then follow the beliefs etc. that the bible gives.

 
Old 03-03-2010, 07:16 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: The Haunted Mansion
15,202 posts, read 8,247,063 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
There isn't necessarily something arrogant about having faith. The arrogance is when folk say they have a personal relationship with Jesus, but not religion, but then follow the beliefs etc. that the bible gives.
As I said earlier, I believe the motivation is different. How they live their lives is more about wanting to please Jesus, as opposed to following religious tenets. Perhaps it doesn't feel like a religion, but rather a relationship.

Because I love my wife, I want to please her. I don't do it out of a sense of duty. I'm motivated by love. Same with Jesus, only much, much more.
 
Old 03-03-2010, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
As I said earlier, I believe the motivation is different. How they live their lives is more about wanting to please Jesus, as opposed to following religious tenets. Perhaps it doesn't feel like a religion, but rather a relationship.

Because I love my wife, I want to please her. I don't do it out of a sense of duty. I'm motivated by love. Same with Jesus, only much, much more.
This is more of a personal bias. I know quite a few professed religious folk who claim they are motivated by their love for Jesus.
 
Old 03-03-2010, 09:11 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,300,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
So when He said this...

John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

...He was only referring to the Jews?

And who was He referring to here?

John 10:16

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.






Then why don't Jews follow Jesus?

Because his group was just another sect in Judaism. Until Paul started preaching to the gentiles. It was seen as a sect within Judaism until it separated once gentiles were allowed in and didn't have to follow the laws.

Jesus was a Jew pure and simple and lived as a Jew. He had no intention of starting a new religion he wanted reform in his religion.
 
Old 03-03-2010, 09:12 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,300,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
So when He said this...

John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

...He was only referring to the Jews?

And who was He referring to here?

John 10:16

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.






Then why don't Jews follow Jesus?

Because his group was just another sect in Judaism. Until Paul started preaching to the gentiles. It was seen as a sect within Judaism until it separated once gentiles were allowed in and didn't have to follow the laws.

Jesus was a Jew pure and simple and lived as a Jew. He had no intention of starting a new religion he wanted reform in his religion.

Jews don't follow Jesus because he was not the messiah and he did not fulfill what the messiah will fulfill when he comes.
 
Old 03-03-2010, 09:19 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: The Haunted Mansion
15,202 posts, read 8,247,063 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Because his group was just another sect in Judaism. Until Paul started preaching to the gentiles. It was seen as a sect within Judaism until it separated once gentiles were allowed in and didn't have to follow the laws.

Jesus was a Jew pure and simple and lived as a Jew. He had no intention of starting a new religion he wanted reform in his religion.
Wrong again! Jesus' own words regarding His purpose & intention:

Mark 10

45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Stated another way:

John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
 
Old 03-04-2010, 05:01 AM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,316,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Because his group was just another sect in Judaism.
Assuming that Jesus was not the Messiah, and assuming that false claimants to be the Messiah can be legitimate Jews, which seems highly doubtful! If Jesus was the Messiah, there is no Judaism now other than Christianity.
 
Old 03-04-2010, 07:19 AM
 
5,463 posts, read 5,786,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Hmmmm . . . does that make the atheists and agnostics I know who adhere to the same morals and practices adherents of a religion???
If those practices include rituals for worshiping or experiencing the divine then yes. I'd imagine you'll be looking quite a while to find those sorts of non-believers, though - they tend to only exist in the mind of the religious.
 
Old 03-04-2010, 08:01 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,300,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
Assuming that Jesus was not the Messiah, and assuming that false claimants to be the Messiah can be legitimate Jews, which seems highly doubtful! If Jesus was the Messiah, there is no Judaism now other than Christianity.
He was not the messiah and clearly there is Judaism. The followers of Jesus before Paul were seen as a sect within Judaism. There were others who claimed to be the messiah and that does not make them not Jews because Judaism does have a belief in the coming of the Messiah. It just hasn't happened yet.

When the Messiah comes he won't start a new religion. Jews are Jews because they are born into Judaism and the early followers of Jesus were Jews by their heritage ie born to Jewish mothers. That does not go away. Jesus never stopped being Jewish. Christianity is just another religion and Judaism is alive and well.

Once again it is arrogant to say just because Christianity came out of Judaism that Judaism is now Christianity.....
 
Old 03-04-2010, 08:41 AM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,316,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
He was not the messiah
Proof? Or are we here just to bellow?

Quote:
and clearly there is Judaism.
It's not that clear. There's no Ark, no Tabernacle, no Temple, no anointed priesthood, no anointed king, no promised land, no tribal records, no prophets, no compelling reason to believe that Jesus did not bring Mosaic Law to an end, that he is not the promised Messiah. The history of the ethnic group that has claimed to be Jews since the time of Jesus can hardly encourage anyone to suppose that they have had divine guidance or protection since then.

Quote:
The followers of Jesus before Paul were seen as a sect within Judaism.
Proof? Or blind, wishful thinking?

Quote:
There were others who claimed to be the messiah and that does not make them not Jews because Judaism does have a belief in the coming of the Messiah.
It doesn't make them Jews, either. People don't just get a delusion that they are a Messiah, do they, not if they get a serious following rather than get locked away. They are either up to no good, or they are what they claim to be. Jesus was either Yahweh in the flesh, or he was a devilish scoundrel, circumcision notwithstanding.

Quote:
it is arrogant to say just because Christianity came out of Judaism
Christianity didn't come out of Judaism. Christianity came out of Abraham, justified by faith, who existed before Judah, whose existence was not necessary for there to be a Messiah.

Quote:
it is arrogant to say just because Christianity came out of Judaism that Judaism is now Christianity.....
It's plain, ineluctable logic. If Jesus of Nazareth was not the Messiah, the only true religion is Judaism, and people who call themselves Christians, or Messiah-ans, are really followers of a fantasy. If Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, the only true religion is 'Messiah-ism', or Christianity; and what people who call themselves Jews really are is followers of a fantasy. Both ideas cannot be true.
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