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Old 03-10-2010, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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But you need to explain why the fact that living organisms need certain things to survive, proves the existence of gods.

Last edited by Rafius; 03-10-2010 at 10:23 AM..
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Old 03-10-2010, 10:13 AM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Because there is only ONE reality that we (and you atheists) have evidence of (one universal field) and must accept. Ergo . . . One reality = one God/Creator.
Faulty reasoning only supported by a personal view.
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Old 03-10-2010, 11:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
But you need to explain why the fact that living organisms need certain things to survive, proves the existence of gods.
It doesn't . . . life and its desire to survive emerging from mindless undirected chaos DOES . . . and since there are no distinguishable different realities, only ONE God is necessary . . all others are pure speculation.
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It doesn't . . . life and its desire to survive emerging from mindless undirected chaos DOES . . . and since there are no distinguishable different realities, only ONE God is necessary . . all others are pure speculation.
It doesn't matter if it's one god or many, it's still all speculation, begun when primitives first began worshiping the sun.
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Old 03-10-2010, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
only ONE God is necessary
Only one god may have been necessary, but that doesn't address the question.

For more than a few of the world's religions, there are more than one god that isn't speculation that is a fact. In their collective reality, those gods are as real and revealed as the god of Abraham. So why are they wrong and you are right?
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
It doesn't matter if it's one god or many, it's still all speculation, begun when primitives first began worshiping the sun.
No . . . there has to be a source for the existing reality . Your source (God) is called Nature . . . mine is called God. But our human beliefs do not determine how many realities there are nor how many Gods are needed to create them. So far there is only one of each. That is undeniable . . . the REST is speculation.
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:39 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 2,952,836 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
No . . . there has to be a source for the existing reality . Your source (God) is called Nature . . . mine is called God. But our human beliefs do not determine how many realities there are nor how many Gods are needed to create them. So far there is only one of each. That is undeniable . . . the REST is speculation.
Mystic, you continue to insist that atheists worship nature, and that by worshiping nature we secretly worship God but don't admit to it. When you ask what defines the difference between "nature" and "generic God," we have continually stated that evidence of higher intelligence, and more vaguely, a "consciousness" is what separates an unfeeling unthinking natural process from the intellectual work of a God. I don't believe you ever got back to me on what evidence you see (aside from your personal meditations) that denotes intelligence.
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:57 PM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
No . . . there has to be a source for the existing reality . Your source (God) is called Nature . . . mine is called God. But our human beliefs do not determine how many realities there are nor how many Gods are needed to create them. So far there is only one of each. That is undeniable . . . the REST is speculation.

Why? Why does there have to be a source of reality? Your opinion only. The rest of your post is a mere repetition of your speculations.
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Old 03-10-2010, 08:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
Mystic, you continue to insist that atheists worship nature, and that by worshiping nature we secretly worship God but don't admit to it.
I have not suggested that atheists "worship" anything . . . that stems from your focus on religious nonsense . . . not a generic God. Besides . . . God requires no worship since God NEEDS nothing. Worship is for humankind's spiritual development . . . NOT God.
Quote:
When you ask what defines the difference between "nature" and "generic God," we have continually stated that evidence of higher intelligence, and more vaguely, a "consciousness" is what separates an unfeeling unthinking natural (no-no) process from the intellectual work of a God. I don't believe you ever got back to me on what evidence you see (aside from your personal meditations) that denotes intelligence.
What we seem to have is a disagreement about degree of intelligence (among other things) . . . the "higher" form of which I admittedly have only my personal experience as proof. You prefer to believe it is a very low order of intelligence. However, that there IS a "directed" intelligence to the universe is undeniable (evidence: specific "properties" and causal chains). That it is NOT "mindless" is established by the existence of life which is undeniably mindful and purposeful (evidence: existence of "desire" to survive). The burden of proof is on those who claim these characteristics came about despite an initial ABSENCE of them (undirected, mindless universe).
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Old 03-13-2010, 12:29 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 2,952,836 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I have not suggested that atheists "worship" anything . . . that stems from your focus on religious nonsense . . . not a generic God. Besides . . . God requires no worship since God NEEDS nothing. Worship is for humankind's spiritual development . . . NOT God.
I'm fairly certain you've used the word worship, or similar to it, when referring to atheists and our reverence for nature.

Quote:
What we seem to have is a disagreement about degree of intelligence (among other things) . . . the "higher" form of which I admittedly have only my personal experience as proof. You prefer to believe it is a very low order of intelligence.
Or the distinct lack of it.

Quote:
However, that there IS a "directed" intelligence to the universe is undeniable (evidence: specific "properties" and causal chains).
There is that vaguarity again. "Properties." You've never officially defined that and instead skirted around it and insulted my "lack of understanding of science." Define what you mean by properties.

Quote:
That it is NOT "mindless" is established by the existence of life which is undeniably mindful and purposeful (evidence: existence of "desire" to survive).
Purpose is human invention. A rock is a rock until a human uses it to bash in the skull of his enemy. It seems you insist that the world has purpose and design when I, and many like me, see none.

The "desire to survive" isn't an absolute law either. Genetic material replicates on its own. We've merely continued this tradition. We're the work of biochemistry in action.

Quote:
The burden of proof is on those who claim these characteristics came about despite an initial ABSENCE of them (undirected, mindless universe).
We see complex things come about all the time from non complex things. Life originated from non life. Why is it absurd to apply that to "these characteristics" you speak of.

Considering at the absolute very most your god could have been responsible for would be the (lack of) "fine tuning" of the physical laws of the universe. Considering this is pretty much dealing with how energy works and going into some crazy theoretical quantum physics I have no knowledge of, I won't bother.

God didn't create humans, planets, elements, physical motion, intelligence, consciousness or any of that jazz any more than than I could claim that I created my great grand child because I have birth to my son which had a daughter who had kid. These all have natural explanations which don't require an anthropomorphized higher-power, nor some overarching pantheistic belief to form.

Did you ever define your god in the first place?
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