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Old 03-14-2010, 11:53 AM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,070,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwonderwhy2124 View Post
So, the hamster is affected by these forces, but will never understand them. This is my analogy for humans and God's will.
Well I would never dare to speak for Hamsters, but as a human, there aren't any "acts of god" that are incomprehensible to us. When the wind picks up Auntie Em's house in Kansas, we know why. When a tsunami wipes out an island, we know why, When the earth opens and moves Santiago Chile 10 feet... we know why!

But more importantly for those things that we know we don't know, just because we don't know it doesn't mean that we have to have this overwhelming compulsion to ascribe to it the "hand of god."

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If God exists in the incarnation as is claimed by monotheistic religions and He has instituted an Absolute Truth for us to follow, we humans have not been granted the intellect needed to understand nor the strength needed to consistently enact said will.
That is one huge "if".

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Could the hamster ever do a physics problem? Could the hamster ever even understand what physics is? No.
In 10 million years hamsters may be the only sentient being left on the planet.
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:38 PM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 7,981,003 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are joking, right? Reality is "sourceless?" Unbelievable. That is not even worth addressing seriously. At least other atheists acknowledge "Nature" (whatever it is) as the source.
You continue to insist that only your view is possible, even though in fact it is unprovable. Except in your mind of course.

When asked, your group of fellow believers claim your god to have no source, having always existed. Sourceless? You are arguing against yourself and losing.
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Old 03-15-2010, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,069,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
In 10 million years hamsters may be the only sentient beings left on the planet.
Just the other day, Dottie The Wonder Cat whispered in my ear (and I'd always doubted she could talk.... imagine that!) that the hamsters won't be inheriting the Earth. "They're just food!", she told me.
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Old 03-15-2010, 05:55 PM
 
37,517 posts, read 25,250,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
Philosophically bankrupt? My roommate comically said it best when he returned from his philosophy class. "Jesus Christ, Korey--This class is pointless. Philosophy doesn't solve anything."I had to agree. We're both scientists so we both tend to focus on the world that can be shown with evidence. We don't freely speculate in the philosophical world because we don't find that it solves anything.
That is obvious!
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But I want to point out that "it just is" is supported by Planck temperature and time and my logical proof showing that motion always was. There was never "non-motion."
Motion is an artifact of the same process of becoming that produces our conscious awareness that we use to "measure" it. Time is the only aspect of reality (the becoming of universal consciousness) that is shared by our consciousness and the physical world. Our experience of it is a result of the same "becoming" of awareness that you call absence of "non-motion." What we experience as our "instantaneous" continuous awareness that we use to perceive and measure reality is NOT instantaneous at all. It sequentially "becomes" a "composite" of the individual brain activity ("lumps of awareness") in "quantum time" by quantum coherence processes in the brain at the planck scale. By the "time" we "measure" anything in our "middle world of time" this quantum "pre-time" has already occurred to enable our awareness to exist as a "composite"(Self) . . . so that we can do so. This "becoming" of our consciousness is identical to that of the universe's consciousness becoming . . . that you describe as continuous "motion."

The universe is energy in various vibratory forms (frequency "traffic jams") in a "perfect fluid" (universal field). The transformations from one vibratory composite form to another produce "motion" in our "time-space." A "perfect fluid" enables these vibratory "traffic jams" to flow ("become") without "cost" . . . because vortices of a perfect fluid are stable. They can collide elastically with one another, intertwine to form complex knotlike structures,("traffic jams") and undergo tensions and compressions, all without losing any energy or producing heat, etc.
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As I said--purpose is a human construct. You're anthropomorphizing the natural world, a world that doesn't care if you live or die. A world that operates by series of unthinking, unfeeling rules. There isn't any higher-order intelligence that dictates this stuff because there is no evidence to suggest that. The "properties" that you are afraid to define don't have any "rule giver" aside from the one religions have invented. The rules don't have purpose, and the rules themselves are just observations we've made. Purpose is a human construct.
This is like arguing with my arrogant younger self . . . with the same predictable result. I keep being reminded of a quote in Wisdom (not using scripture for any purpose other than to elucidate my current feelings about scientists.) Wisdom 13:7,

. . . For they search busily among His works, but are distracted by what they see, because the things seen are fair. But again, not even these are pardonable. For if they so far succeeded in knowledge that they could speculate about the world, how did they not more quickly find its Lord?
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I was wondering why you bother arguing about your invisible friend if the belief or disbelief in which is absolutely meaningless. It doesn't help us understand the world so it serves no useful purpose to human advancement. Why bother arguing about it.
Why do you bother investigating His "works" and trying to understand them while ignoring Him?It is like referring to what your "mother-in-law" does without acknowledging her existence.
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And the Shakespeare bit was humor. I didn't think you would get it.
You do significantly underestimate me.
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Clearly not, but it does point out that we humans are the thinking feeling ones, not the universe. As I've pointed out, nature isn't a thinking feeling entity. Your God is.
How do you know this . . . "scientifically?"
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Since one requires intelligence which you have been unable to justify (aside from throwing around the word "properties" without defining what you're talking about) and the other doesn't require intelligence--having trouble following your reasoning as to why atheists don't exist.
Huh??? Atheists don't exist????
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Consciousness is an abstraction of thought, memories, and various behaviors of the brain. How is that at all related to a "universal field."
You are NOT an abstraction . . . although I am beginning to question your ability to abstract. Abstractions do not interact independently with the universe . . . neither do illusions. In order for consciousness to "become" it must have a non-physical substrate within which it can aggregate to composite form (what we experience as Self awareness). That requires some kind of field.
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I was in the middle of reading it when I decided to go to bed.
I'm not surprised. I wonder how enthralling your "logical proof showing that motion always was" . . . would be to read?

Last edited by MysticPhD; 03-15-2010 at 06:50 PM..
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Old 03-15-2010, 06:37 PM
 
1,719 posts, read 3,625,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
For if they so far succeeded in knowledge that they could speculate about the world, how did they not more quickly find its Lord?


Maybe because...*gasp*...He doesn't exist in the incarnation that you suspect He does?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Why do you bother investigating His "works" and trying to understand them while ignoring Him?
I search for Truth. The Bible and other religious works claim to represent Truth. I investigated them and found said works to be full of ****.
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:28 PM
 
37,517 posts, read 25,250,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwonderwhy2124 View Post
[/b][/i]Maybe because...*gasp*...He doesn't exist in the incarnation that you suspect He does?
Whatever we may disagree about Him . . . that He exists cannot be one of them . . . only what we believe about His attributes (mindless, indifferent, purposeless . . . or whatever)
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I search for Truth. The Bible and other religious works claim to represent Truth. I investigated them and found said works to be full of ****.
I seek truth also. It was thrust upon me and I had to find something to make sense of it all. The bible is only one of the sources of human speculation about such things that proved useful in the effort. The hard part is wading through all the primitive ignorance and trying to reconcile things with science. ALL the various scriptures in the myriad belief systems out there along with legends, myths, and oral traditions present a useful "spiritual fossil record" through which to discern the evolution of our understanding. Combing that with our accumulated knowledge in the various sicence and knowledge disciplines enables a clearer understanding of what was to me at one time completely inexplicable and nonsensical.
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Old 03-15-2010, 08:46 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 2,952,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhd
In order for consciousness to "become" it must have a non-physical substrate
Huh? Consciousness is an abstraction, a concept that integrates memories, thoughts, and emotion which originate in the very real physical brain. What "non-physical substrate" are you speaking of?
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:05 PM
 
37,517 posts, read 25,250,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
Huh? Consciousness is an abstraction, a concept that integrates memories, thoughts, and emotion which originate in the very real physical brain. What "non-physical substrate" are you speaking of?
Repeating your false assertion that denies your very essence does not make it any truer the second time around. YOU are no abstraction and you are comprised of your consciousness. You are not even reading or trying to understand the material presented. Clearly you have engaged a topic above your scientific pay grade. You may withdraw again . . . just don't forget to tuck that tail.
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:15 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 2,952,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Repeating your false assertion that denies your very essence does not make it any truer the second time around. YOU are no abstraction and you are comprised of your consciousness. You are not even reading or trying to understand the material presented. Clearly you have engaged a topic above your scientific pay grade. You may withdraw again . . . just don't forget to tuck that tail.
You'll notice this is a different thread, Mystic, where you haven't completely broken down into insults and fallacies.

As I was saying. Consciousness is not a physical entity which we both agree on, correct?

Our physical brains produce thoughts, memories, and emotions. Consciousness is an abstraction of these three items. That does not say I do not exist. I don't actually know where you are getting that from.

What "non-physical substrate" are you referring to? I know it's difficult for you, but be specific.
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:29 PM
 
37,517 posts, read 25,250,403 times
Reputation: 5857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
You'll notice this is a different thread, Mystic, where you haven't completely broken down into insults and fallacies.

As I was saying. Consciousness is not a physical entity which we both agree on, correct?

Our physical brains produce thoughts, memories, and emotions. Consciousness is an abstraction of these three items. That does not say I do not exist. I don't actually know where you are getting that from.

What "non-physical substrate" are you referring to? I know it's difficult for you, but be specific.
You are like the "melody" played using the "brain waves of consciousness" (instead of sound waves). You are the "melody" because you do NOT exist as individual "notes" . . . only as a complete sequence of them (Composite Self). In the sense that melody is an abstraction . . You (as Self) would also be an abstraction. BUT . . . while melody must be experienced by a consciousness and does NOT exist as a composite . . . only individual notes . . . You (as Self) DO exist as a composite and interact with the universe as such . . . NOT as individual "notes." I am NOT conversing with individual "brain waves."
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