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Old 03-15-2010, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Florida
595 posts, read 711,479 times
Reputation: 266

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Actually a darn good question! These kind of questions are sort of hard to answer even for a theologian or elder christian who has studied scripture for 50-60 years. Before it can be answered it's important to emphasize that in Gods plan He has provide His word to reference just
about everything in life that is essential (and essential walk with Him and not some mediator,deity,monkey/cat god, satan or ANY even remote
intercessor other than Jesus one of three make-ups of God or manifestations) religion likes persons and that works. as long as the
pleurality is applied to ONE (crystal clear). Jesus was a clever teacher and often would drop hints of His origins and
basically His role. He would ( without saying duhaaah) "I and my Father are ONE." For those not getting that let's put it this way "I and my Father
are Six? No! 3? No! well then how many cottin pickin Gods are you......ONE. The ONE God plays three distinct roles why because He can and likes that. This mystery (revealed only to believers and NO one else) is so easy to understand that well, it's time to move on to the heavy stuff.

Jesus also said "If you have seen ME you HAVE seen the Father" come on!
Are you the mirror image of God and are you God in the Flesh?.....Jesus..sure what's our problem dog?
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:47 PM
 
Location: South Africa
1,319 posts, read 1,814,282 times
Reputation: 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by DASULAR17 View Post
Actually a darn good question! These kind of questions are sort of hard to answer even for a theologian or elder christian who has studied scripture for 50-60 years. Before it can be answered it's important to emphasize that in Gods plan He has provide His word to reference just
about everything in life that is essential (and essential walk with Him and not some mediator,deity,monkey/cat god, satan or ANY even remote
intercessor other than Jesus one of three make-ups of God or manifestations) religion likes persons and that works. as long as the
pleurality is applied to ONE (crystal clear). Jesus was a clever teacher and often would drop hints of His origins and
basically His role. He would ( without saying duhaaah) "I and my Father are ONE." For those not getting that let's put it this way "I and my Father
are Six? No! 3? No! well then how many cottin pickin Gods are you......ONE. The ONE God plays three distinct roles why because He can and likes that. This mystery (revealed only to believers and NO one else) is so easy to understand that well, it's time to move on to the heavy stuff.

Jesus also said "If you have seen ME you HAVE seen the Father" come on!
Are you the mirror image of God and are you God in the Flesh?.....Jesus..sure what's our problem dog?
So I guess you have irrefutable proof like pics/vids to show you have seen/met jesus? Or is this merely the mantra you are regurgitating from your holy book which btw is not a reliable source as "evidence"
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Old 03-15-2010, 10:36 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 2,951,508 times
Reputation: 909
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are like the "melody" played using the "brain waves of consciousness" (instead of sound waves). You are the "melody" because you do NOT exist as individual "notes" . . . only as a complete sequence of them (Composite Self). In the sense that melody is an abstraction . . You (as Self) would also be an abstraction. BUT . . . while melody must be experienced by a consciousness and does NOT exist as a composite . . . only individual notes . . . You (as Self) DO exist as a composite and interact with the universe as such . . . NOT as individual "notes." I am NOT conversing with individual "brain waves."

I don't understand your analogy. You seem to making a claim it doesn't support. We understand the melody because of its individual notes. A melody is a composition of its notes as you said. A person's identity is a composition of their memories, thoughts, and emotions.

You can break down that melody into individual notes and understand each note. You can break down a person's memories, thoughts, and feelings and understand each of these as well.

So, what the hell are you talking about? What "non-physical substrate?" I said be specific.
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:08 PM
 
37,499 posts, read 25,232,088 times
Reputation: 5855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
I don't understand your analogy. You seem to making a claim it doesn't support. We understand the melody because of its individual notes.
NO . . . it loses its identity as individual notes . . . the melody only exists as a particular SEQUENCE of sound waves.
Quote:
A melody is a composition of its notes as you said.
But it does not EXIST as melody in physical reality . . . only as a non-physical abstraction in a consciousness that can appreciate it. It is an "abstraction" of what is in reality just individual notes.
Quote:
A person's identity is a composition of their memories, thoughts, and emotions.
Like a melody . . . it is a composite of a SEQUENCE of "brain waves" that are experienced as a composite (Self) by the consciousness that is created by the sequence. Just as a melody must be appreciated by a consciousness . . . so too must our Self be experienced by our consciousness. It is an "abstraction" (a non-physical conception) like a melody . . . EXCEPT that non-physical abstractions like melody cannot independently interact with the universe as abstractions. Our Self can! We are doing so in this thread. Ergo . . . our Self must EXIST as a real non-physical composite vibratory energic form that interacts independently with the universe as Self (composite consciousness). That real non-physical energic form must exist in a non-physical substrate. Are you following this?
Quote:
You can break down that melody into individual notes and understand each note. You can break down a person's memories, thoughts, and feelings and understand each of these as well.
But the melody is LOST when you do . . . as is the Self.
Quote:
So, what the hell are you talking about? What "non-physical substrate?" I said be specific.
Is this too abstract for you? I am being specific.
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:41 AM
 
Location: Dubai
241 posts, read 423,518 times
Reputation: 129
That's easy
of course there is one god...... let me explain more>>
for example if two manager lead one school how it's gonna work ..so that's the same with god.. ??? and it is empssible !!
so in Islam we always and hardly belive that their is just one god..

>>> I hope that I got the right answer for you ^_*
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Old 03-16-2010, 06:59 AM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,057,040 times
Reputation: 14878
Quote:
Originally Posted by nawary View Post
That's easy
of course there is one god...... let me explain more>>
for example if two manager lead one school how it's gonna work ..so that's the same with god.. ??? and it is empssible !!
so in Islam we always and hardly belive that their is just one god..

>>> I hope that I got the right answer for you ^_*
Well in a league, each team has its own manager. In the world of religion there are many teams, so I would assume many managers. Or is god the league commissioner?
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:27 AM
 
3,614 posts, read 2,951,508 times
Reputation: 909
[quote=MysticPhD;13311088]NO . . . it loses its identity as individual notes . . . the melody only exists as a particular SEQUENCE of sound waves.

Your consciousness exists only because of a specific connection of neurons. If you're defining your conscious as something else, you need to define that. Since you claimed your consciousness was part of a "non-physical substrate," you need to define what that is. Using an analogy is not a definition.

Quote:
But it does not EXIST as melody in physical reality . . . only as a non-physical abstraction in a consciousness that can appreciate it. It is an "abstraction" of what is in reality just individual notes. Like a melody . . . it is a composite of a SEQUENCE of "brain waves" that are experienced as a composite (Self) by the consciousness that is created by the sequence. Just as a melody must be appreciated by a consciousness . . . so too must our Self be experienced by our consciousness. It is an "abstraction" (a non-physical conception) like a melody . . . EXCEPT that non-physical abstractions like melody cannot independently interact with the universe as abstractions. Our Self can! We are doing so in this thread. Ergo . . . our Self must EXIST as a real non-physical composite vibratory energic form that interacts independently with the universe as Self (composite consciousness). That real non-physical energic form must exist in a non-physical substrate. Are you following this? But the melody is LOST when you do . . . as is the Self. Is this too abstract for you? I am being specific.
A tree still makes a sound if nobody is around to hear it, and you seem to be arguing that it doesn't. A melody is a human interpretation of a series of sounds, just as consciousness is a human interpretation of a series of brain behaviors. I don't see how you claim self-awareness must be somehow outside of the physical world (i.e. supernatural).
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Old 03-17-2010, 12:16 PM
 
37,499 posts, read 25,232,088 times
Reputation: 5855
[quote=Konraden;13330812]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
NO . . . it loses its identity as individual notes . . . the melody only exists as a particular SEQUENCE of sound waves.

Your consciousness exists only because of a specific connection of neurons. If you're defining your conscious as something else, you need to define that. Since you claimed your consciousness was part of a "non-physical substrate," you need to define what that is. Using an analogy is not a definition.
::Sigh:: Consciousness is an accumulation of baryonic energy transformations through quantum coherence processes in the brain that result in a non-baryonic energy state that exists at the "square of the speed of light" in the "perfect fluid" of the universe (non-physical pure energy substrate) and is used to interpret inputs at the "sub-light" level of existence.Better?
Quote:
A tree still makes a sound if nobody is around to hear it, and you seem to be arguing that it doesn't. A melody is a human interpretation of a series of sounds, just as consciousness is a human interpretation of a series of brain behaviors.
You use words as if they are explanatory when they are merely observational. Human interpretation is a phenomenon that has to occur within a "mind" or consciousness and that cannot be done by discrete individual brain activity. You are not individual brain activity. Consciousness is experienced as instantaneous and continuous . . . but it clearly must accumulate somehow first. It is that accumulated instantaneous awareness that must be explained as the "arena" in which human interpretation takes place. The individual discrete physical brain activity that accumulates to comprise it at the quantum level cannot explain this.
Quote:
I don't see how you claim self-awareness must be somehow outside of the physical world (i.e. supernatural).
How can you ignore my REPEATED protestations against the supernatural and make this absurd misrepresentation of my views. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE SUPERNATURAL!
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Old 03-17-2010, 02:23 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 2,951,508 times
Reputation: 909
[quote=MysticPhD;13332418]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
::Sigh:: Consciousness is an accumulation of baryonic energy transformations through quantum coherence processes in the brain that result in a non-baryonic energy state that exists at the "square of the speed of light" in the "perfect fluid" of the universe (non-physical pure energy substrate) and is used to interpret inputs at the "sub-light" level of existence.Better?
You're funny. Burying what was said in quantum physics terms doesn't change the meaning.

Physical: Of or relating to the physical world--matter and energy. Energy is part of physics. "non-physical" does not mean non-matter. You already have my definition of consciousness, which is directly caused by the electrical activity of the brain.

Quote:
You use words as if they are explanatory when they are merely observational. Human interpretation is a phenomenon that has to occur within a "mind" or consciousness
Mind and consciousness are the same thing: abstractions of our throughts, memories, and emotions.

Quote:
and that cannot be done by discrete individual brain activity. You are not individual brain activity. Consciousness is experienced as instantaneous and continuous . . . but it clearly must accumulate somehow first. It is that accumulated instantaneous awareness that must be explained as the "arena" in which human interpretation takes place. The individual discrete physical brain activity that accumulates to comprise it at the quantum level cannot explain this. How can you ignore my REPEATED protestations against the supernatural and make this absurd misrepresentation of my views. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE SUPERNATURAL!
Uh huh. You talk of non-physical substrates, minds and consciousness' that do not exist in the physical world, and other such metaphysical nonsense, and then claim it isn't supernatural. You are claiming that magic is real.
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:56 PM
 
37,499 posts, read 25,232,088 times
Reputation: 5855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
You're funny. Burying what was said in quantum physics terms doesn't change the meaning.

Physical: Of or relating to the physical world--matter and energy. Energy is part of physics. "non-physical" does not mean non-matter. You already have my definition of consciousness, which is directly caused by the electrical activity of the brain.
Now who is being disingenuous. You know full well that the physical means the forms of energy we sense in the "middle world of sensation" as "substance" bounded by the molecular activity of our senses themselves.
Quote:
Mind and consciousness are the same thing: abstractions of our throughts, memories, and emotions.
Abstractions cannot act independently with the universe as abstractions.YOU are not an abstraction but you only exist as what would have to be described as one if your definition of our consciousness is to be believed. How do you reconcile a mere abstraction acting independently with the universe (a "property" reserved for real entities comprised of vibratory energy of some sort?)
Quote:
Uh huh. You talk of non-physical substrates, minds and consciousness' that do not exist in the physical world, and other such metaphysical nonsense, and then claim it isn't supernatural. You are claiming that magic is real.
If we are to be specific . . . everything in the universe is energy . . . including what we cannot directly sense but can only sense the "effects" of indirectly and infer their existence . . . such as our consciousness, dark matter and dark energy. All we can "measure" of our consciousness are the individual baryonic inputs . . . not the composite form of energy I am interacting with in this forum . . . your Self . . . which is composing your posts. Ergo . . . it must be of the more common non-baryonic form comprising the bulk of the universe. You are aware that the baryonic content of the universe represents only 4+% and non-baryonic dark matter and energy comprise the remaining 95+%? So . . . don't you think it is a bit presumptuous to write off as "supernatural" the non-baryonic 95+% ?

Last edited by MysticPhD; 03-17-2010 at 04:11 PM..
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