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Old 03-04-2010, 03:34 AM
 
240 posts, read 337,327 times
Reputation: 96

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You have it backwards. There are no "particles" . . . they are vibratory energy events in time. This is why they will fail to find the Higgs, IMO. There is a perfect fluid as the substrate. EVERYTHING is some form of or composite of vibratory energy events whose only "permanence" is as a composite standing waveform. The universal field is what provides the substrate that contains the energy events.
You aren't exactly a physicist and don't seem to even have studied basic physics, so forgive me if when you say there are no particles, I just ignore you. They will fail to find the Higgs, because they have already found it in the form of electrons, protons, neutrons, etc., which are the sources of mass. Once they do the experiments with the particle collidors and don't find the Higgs particle with the expected energy/mass, they will be forced to give up that idea. For me particles are quantized energy units, which even if they have oscillatory properties, are still localized to a specific region of space. Your "vibratory energy events" is too vague an idea for me give any consideration. Assuming you are equating "universal field" as a "substrate" with ether, and even if said ether exists, to jump to ether = consciousness and ether = God, is well a bit presumptuous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I get that the consciousness thing is unpalatable to you . . . but the universal field IS ubiquitous . . . so it is hardly remarkably different.
I don't really believe in your omnipresent "universal field", so, it isn't any more "palatable". Localized fields originating from particles are one thing, your "universal field" is another. I have nothing against the idea of consciousness or God or universal field or whatever, I just don't care much for poorly defined ideas, which aren't articulated in such a way that they can be proven true or false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Have you gained control over your autonomic system to slow your heart rate below 40bpm and slow your breathing below 3 per minute as you withdraw from all sensory input and quiet your thoughts to focus on the experiences within?
I don't know how much I have slowed my heart rate. I never measured it. I've done numerous techniques, and the more powerful ones didn't really focus on breathing or heart rate, but on attention itself. I have noticed though my breathing requirements are greatly lessened if I withdraw to a certain point, and also that after a certain point my outer senses turn off, body goes numb, can't move it(kinda like falling asleep), can't feel it, at which point I begin to see and hear things that come from within and my focus/clarity also increases greatly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I sought the oneness of Nirvana by withdrawing from the world of sensation. Instead I encountered the oneness of a multitude that included me and everything alive. The "end state" is always the same. I have tried vainly to transfer the experience to words . . . but it just doesn't work.
Work on transferring your experience to words, and then I'll consider going into more detail in regards to mine. If you think there is an "end state", you haven't gotten very far. Try starting at your head, instead of your heart. You are starting at the wrong place, which is why your experiences aren't well defined. In some of the Indian religions, which center around yogic meditation, there are multiple planes of consciousness you have to transverse before you arrive at the absolute and a guru who has attained the absolute is necessary to arrive at that plane of reality, as it is supposedly too difficult to do completely on your own. To be honest I find it kinda ironic that some Christians mix meditation and Christian beliefs together, using meditation to justify the other, and yet they just ignore the finer details in regards to meditation's purported goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Our sensory system and the range of vibratory molecular "speed" that comprises it . . . constrains us to the "middle world" of physical experience. But our consciousness is not so limited and actually exists as pure vibratory energy . . . much like a flame. As we shut down the distractions of the senses and the processes that sustain our physicality . . . we "tune in" to and "resonate" with those aspects of reality not constrained by the molecular "speed" of physicality. At least that is how I experience it. Your mileage may vary.
I don't really get what you are saying. It all sounds a bit nondescript(i.e. vague) to me. Your way of describing things sounds new-agey paraphrasing of something you probably read. Not sure what you mean by "mileage", didn't know we were talking about cars. Anyways it isn't necessarily important how far the car has traveled, but where it has been. You can have tens of thousands of miles on your car, but never been more than 15 miles(your "end state") from your home.[/quote]
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:05 AM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,138,372 times
Reputation: 14878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
You mean like you can show a believer all the undeniable, objective and verifiable evidence that there was no global flood and that the Earth is more than 6-10,000 years.....and they still don't believe it?
Oh, that's not true.

Actually a god could do something comparatively simple, like appear in the sky so that the entire world could see him at the same time and just say something simple, like "cut it out, behave." I guarantee that would do it for me.

Which brings up another issue, this god the intelligent designer, who designed all of these exquisitely efficient organisms surely could have saved considerable time and effort (including his only begotten son) by making his presence known in a similar manner eons ago! Surely even god would know how inefficient it is to tell just a couple of people at a time his plans for humanity?
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Texas
32,701 posts, read 17,763,705 times
Reputation: 18796
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
If atheist can't prove that god doesn't exist, then how do monotheist prove that their is only one god?

Atheists have nothing to prove. Those making god-claims have to prive their case.

They can't.
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
2,834 posts, read 4,038,432 times
Reputation: 3002
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
If atheist can't prove that god doesn't exist, then how do monotheist prove that their is only one god?
I would have to ask you this question: How does one prove the non-existence of anything? Absence does not equal non-existence. If one sets out to prove the non-existence of a god one has to first set the basics of what they are looking for, by setting these basics you create a paradox, how can you give something a description when it doesn't exist in the first place. Therefore, how can I say it doesn't exist if I don't know what it is I'm really looking for, because your concept of a god may be just that, your concept.
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:38 AM
 
3,614 posts, read 2,958,165 times
Reputation: 909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
I would have to ask you this question: How does one prove the non-existence of anything? Absence does not equal non-existence.
No, but lack of evidence suggests a lack of existence. If there is no reason nor evidence to believe something exists, it for all intents and purposes doesn't exist. "If the consequence for disbelief and belief are exactly the same, why bother?"


Quote:
If one sets out to prove the non-existence of a god one has to first set the basics of what they are looking for, by setting these basics you create a paradox, how can you give something a description when it doesn't exist in the first place.
We've defined unicorns. Surely theists could define a god, correct? Those claiming a god exists need to define this god in the first place (which as of yet, theists have fallen particularly short on).
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:40 AM
 
3,614 posts, read 2,958,165 times
Reputation: 909
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Have you gained control over your autonomic system to slow your heart rate below 40bpm and slow your breathing below 3 per minute as you withdraw from all sensory input and quiet your thoughts to focus on the experiences within?
That is a recipe for a hallucination. You're inducing a psychotic episode by starving the brain of oxygen.
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:49 AM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,138,372 times
Reputation: 14878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
How does one prove the non-existence of anything?
Well that's the point isn't it?

Quote:
If one sets out to prove the non-existence of a god one has to first set the basics of what they are looking for
Well we certainly have ample descriptions of a myriad number of other gods from which to work with. We know from religious text that Odin is this Nordic looking chap, Neptune as a penchant for bounding about with a trident, Obatala lives somewhere on the west coast of Africa, and Vishnu is out creating and destroying. So, there is a basis for starting our inquiry.
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:50 AM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,138,372 times
Reputation: 14878
Quote:
Originally Posted by konraden View Post
that is a recipe for a hallucination. You're inducing a psychotic episode by starving the brain of oxygen.
bingo!
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:59 AM
 
37,644 posts, read 25,325,165 times
Reputation: 5863
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustNobody View Post
You aren't exactly a physicist and don't seem to even have studied basic physics, so forgive me if when you say there are no particles, I just ignore you. They will fail to find the Higgs, because they have already found it in the form of electrons, protons, neutrons, etc., which are the sources of mass. Once they do the experiments with the particle collidors and don't find the Higgs particle with the expected energy/mass, they will be forced to give up that idea. For me particles are quantized energy units, which even if they have oscillatory properties, are still localized to a specific region of space. Your "vibratory energy events" is too vague an idea for me give any consideration. Assuming you are equating "universal field" as a "substrate" with ether, and even if said ether exists, to jump to ether = consciousness and ether = God, is well a bit presumptuous.
Interesting. Of course the spooky action at a distance stuff doesn't shake your physical orientation at all? We are talking about spherical standing waves within spherical standing waves, etc. Just because we haven't yet developed the math to eliminate the ever expanding "beat" in Schrodinger's wave function doesn't mean that reality MUST be "particles." Only our math and its limitations require it because "quantizing" is an event in time with co-mingling of the "non-discrete" into the "discrete" resulting in undetected identity problems within the measures.
Quote:
I don't really believe in your omnipresent "universal field", so, it isn't any more "palatable". Localized fields originating from particles are one thing, your "universal field" is another. I have nothing against the idea of consciousness or God or universal field or whatever, I just don't care much for poorly defined ideas, which aren't articulated in such a way that they can be proven true or false.
Belief is not the issue. Without a universal field there is no way the "properties" of the universe could exist . . . our measurement and quantification problems notwithstanding.
Quote:
I don't know how much I have slowed my heart rate. I never measured it. I've done numerous techniques, and the more powerful ones didn't really focus on breathing or heart rate, but on attention itself. I have noticed though my breathing requirements are greatly lessened if I withdraw to a certain point, and also that after a certain point my outer senses turn off, body goes numb, can't move it(kinda like falling asleep), can't feel it, at which point I begin to see and hear things that come from within and my focus/clarity also increases greatly.
This seems like you are well on the way then. My own progress was sporadic and disjointed. I tried many techniques but had little success until I began using bio-feedback as an interim step to train myself to discern the internal indices of altered autonomic processes. Then the internal attention within was greatly facilitated and the altered states became more amenable to my conscious control.
Quote:
Work on transferring your experience to words, and then I'll consider going into more detail in regards to mine.
I have done so several times in my earlier posts but they were not very satisfying to me . . . but it was the completely unexpected nature of it (given what I was led to expect from considerable reading) that upset my worldview.
Quote:
If you think there is an "end state", you haven't gotten very far. Try starting at your head, instead of your heart. You are starting at the wrong place, which is why your experiences aren't well defined. In some of the Indian religions, which center around yogic meditation, there are multiple planes of consciousness you have to transverse before you arrive at the absolute and a guru who has attained the absolute is necessary to arrive at that plane of reality, as it is supposedly too difficult to do completely on your own. To be honest I find it kinda ironic that some Christians mix meditation and Christian beliefs together, using meditation to justify the other, and yet they just ignore the finer details in regards to meditation's purported goal.
Sorry been there done that . . . it was BS as best I could determine it. The end state is the end state and it never changes. I can alter many things at each transitory stage (as observer) but there are simply some that cannot be altered at all by me. Those I attribute to external reality. There are two sorts . . . transient images with emotive content and the "end state." The former seem to be most prevalent when I have had strong emotional contacts with others and the images always are more primal or ancestral but identifiable with the current individuals. The latter is unmistakably God as far as I can determine. Over 50 years of my septuagenarian existence have been devoted to reaching this conclusion and I am content.
Quote:
I don't really get what you are saying. It all sounds a bit nondescript(i.e. vague) to me. Your way of describing things sounds new-agey paraphrasing of something you probably read.
As I said . . . my experiences run counter to what I have read and expected. That is why they were so life-changing.
Quote:
Not sure what you mean by "mileage", didn't know we were talking about cars.Anyways it isn't necessarily important how far the car has traveled, but where it has been. You can have tens of thousands of miles on your car, but never been more than 15 miles(your "end state") from your home.
Don't be coy. We disagree and our experiences are different . . . so be it.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 03-04-2010 at 12:55 PM..
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Old 03-04-2010, 12:24 PM
 
37,644 posts, read 25,325,165 times
Reputation: 5863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
That is a recipe for a hallucination. You're inducing a psychotic episode by starving the brain of oxygen.
Interesting. The clarity of my consciousness would belie that.
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