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Old 03-04-2010, 04:07 PM
23 posts, read 38,003 times
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Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
On a lighter vein...

If as some of my theist friends argue, that upon my demise I find myself standing before god's judgement, I will simply state,
"My Lord, did you seriously expect me to believe in your existence when your earthly spokespersons were mass murdering crazies who claimed that their atrocities were committed in your name? Did you honestly expect that I should accept proof of existence from the likes of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggert, James Dobson, and a host of child piddling priest when all you had to do was one simple, by your standards to make yourself known to the mooks like me?"
Now, if this god answers me and says something incredibly stupid like, "it was all in my plan.' frankly I would rather take my chances in hell.
Heh. Bad idea debating God. You're cherry picking your examples of unbelievable prophets. All he's gotta do is point out some who weren't so bad. Abraham, maybe, or Enoch. Or Jesus? Or how about if he tells you it was your job to go looking for him? Maybe reminds you of some simple things he did in your life that you brushed off or ignored.

I'm not as smart as God, and I can come up with something better than, "It was all in my plan." It would be interesting to see how God would really reply to that.
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Old 03-04-2010, 04:55 PM
37,508 posts, read 25,243,901 times
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Originally Posted by JustNobody View Post
I started very basic meditation techniques by at least the 9th grade, so my "worldview" wasn't as fixated as yours, and even though some of the experiences I later had weren't entirely expected, coming to the conclusion they are from God is a bit jumping the gun. From the Indian philosophy/religion standpoint the experiences come from awakening oneself(one's higher bodies) on the higher planes of reality and that is said to effect one's physical body; plus your physical body has a certain amount of energy itself, so it is capable of producing unusual sensations, like runner's high, various types of climaxes, without need of anything supernatural. The glands in your brain is capable of releasing a number of compounds under stress and other circumstances, a lot of which have varying psychoactive properties. The heart and the lungs are capable of releasing psychoactive chemicals as well. Your ignorance of how your own body works is not my fault.
My worldview wasn't fixated at all and I understand my body and brain quite well, thank you. I was a closet atheist as a young child but went through the motions expected of me. As a rebellious teenager I began martial arts training and became an avowed atheist. I took up meditation and Buddhism at the same time.
What was "BS"? Maybe for you the "end state" nevers changes, but to say that it can't change is a bit dogmatic, then again certain methods have their end points. The way you describe things reminds me of when I was in high school and still a Christian; I thought similarly; of course even then I could go into more detail than you are doing. If there is a "God", I bet truly experiencing such would blow your experiences away a billion fold at least. My experiences more closely follow the general outline I've read in the Indian traditions; some of the experiences I had before I even read; though I hesitate to say I've experienced other realities; I can only say I am unsure of what to make of them; to me proof of God is a face to face meeting; anything else is unsatisfactory. I've become very skeptical as of late, but I once was a theist of sorts. I think humans are interesting creatures and it will be a while before science has a firm grasp of what we are and what follows from simple body and brain chemistry and what if anything is indicative of supernatural origins.
I never said it can't change . . . only that it doesn't change for me. The only Indian descriptions that resonated with me were the Sahasrara (crown of the head) and Ajna (middle of the brow) Chakras. I experience unmistakable "sensations" there that cannot be explained by physiology . . . there is really nothing in the way of sensory system components in either location.
I've seen the whole alter your vibration wavelength to change your consciousness thing all over the place, which is why your description seems new-agey to me. Were you Christian when you first started your meditation practices or did it come after? And if it came after, why did it come after?
My family was Catholic so when I was in the closet as an atheist I went through the motions.It took 18+ years of meditation practice before the breakthrough experience. There is no way for me to quantify it . . . but your "blow your experiences away a billion fold at least" is not off the mark emotionally. IT was the impetus to find some RATIONAL, SCIENTIFICALLY supportable explanation for it using whatever knowledge we had as a species about such things. I left nothing out . . . legends, myths, scriptures, traditions, theology, psychology, physics, biology, sociology, anthropology, cosmology . . whatever record of human speculation exists. I do NOT believe in magic or supernatural anything . . . so it had to make sense to me in a rational way . . . no mumbo jumbo. Although I used the mumbo jumbo as templates for searching out rational correlates. The Christian rubric stripped of all its mumbo jumbo fit perfectly.
Our experiences aren't exactly different; mine are like yours, plus others. I am coy; it just is the way I am, plus the way you communicate is so confusing and repetitive at times, I wonder if I am talking to an actual person. The discussion of meditative experiences is a tricky proposition at best, especially in such a public place as an internet forum. It is also kinda a permanent record, and I'm not exactly completely anonymous.
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Old 03-04-2010, 06:17 PM
Location: NC, USA
7,088 posts, read 12,703,882 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Because there is only ONE reality that we (and you atheists) have evidence of (one universal field) and must accept. Ergo . . . One reality = one God/Creator.
LOL, the existence of Humans does not prove the existence of any diety. Just as the existence of a fig does not prove the existence of a catfish. Ain't evolution grand!!! The myth that there is a god is proof that man has an imagination.
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Old 03-04-2010, 07:18 PM
37,508 posts, read 25,243,901 times
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Originally Posted by Dusty Rhodes View Post
LOL, the existence of Humans does not prove the existence of any diety. Just as the existence of a fig does not prove the existence of a catfish. Ain't evolution grand!!! The myth that there is a god is proof that man has an imagination.
I will assume you just read it too fast, Dusty. You seem too intelligent to so badly interpret the post. The existence of the universe and the "properties" that make it intelligible and enable science to allow us to understand it is what mandates a God . . . as does the existence of a survival drive. It is also impossible to explain imagination and creativity in a presumed mindless deterministic universe also.
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:19 PM
Location: Florida
595 posts, read 711,792 times
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Default Proof of One God

I guess I'am having trouble with this thread as I cannot relate to any faiths other than perhaps pagan religions that have more than one godlike worship? Muslims believe in one God (allah), Christians one God as well as Zionists . There is no need to prove that there is one God as it's a given. I believe Buddists and Hindu's have many deities but really a map to God. Catholics (a christian based faith) has similar deities that expose them to quasi-pagan mediators where intercessory prayer is practiced. This is an awkward maufactured albeit manmade (well intended worship) yet Catholics remain committed to the God of Abraham and the acceptence of Jesus excluding them from pagan idolatry (to a point). They are treading very dangeous ground in a perplexing orgy of religiosity that
is out of control. Muslims are clueless via their cradle to the grave intense teachings and parent brainwashing with all their pagan mediators to numerous to count. All these are good people caught up in a network of prophets,icons,saints,clerics, monuments,symbols, writings and wishy washy non biblical well intended
stuff that makes relgion...religion: mans attempt to get to God by deeds and indirect sources. People inherit much of their beloved religions making it more difficult from even a cultural standpoint as to how millions of the world population faiths will swing. People migrate to what they are nurtured into.

Last edited by DASULAR17; 03-04-2010 at 11:31 PM..
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:47 PM
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,862 posts, read 9,656,549 times
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Originally Posted by FarmerDan View Post
Heh. Only from History. (Or Fiction, depending on whether you actually believe the Bible has any truth in it.)

Scriptures are full of stories of people who didn't believe even after serious objective, verifiable evidence. Or more often, believed for a while and then kinda... fell away.

Lots of the Children of Israel had issues, even after seeing the Red Sea part, after following the cloud/pillar of fire, after gathering manna for breakfast every day, after seeing the events on mount Sinai (albeit from a distance). It wasn't even a month before they were worshiping the golden calf and participating in the orgy.

How about King David? Even after God helped him kill Goliath and become King of Israel, he tossed all that aside and sinned with Bathsheba.

Christ did a lot of miracles. Fed 5000 people with a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish? Healed people, brought people back from the dead, calmed the sea... Some people believed, some didn't.

There are some... The Apostle Paul, for example. One good appearance by Christ was enough to change his life forever.
So now all you have to do is show that what the scriptures say is actually true. Good luck with that one.

To be honest Dan. You're really wasting your time telling atheists about what's in the Bible. If you have any verifiable evidence for the Red Sea parting. pillars of fire, miracles etc, I'm sure many of us would love to see it.
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Old 03-05-2010, 12:11 AM
Location: Jacksonville,Florida
3,772 posts, read 9,361,474 times
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
the way to god is through the heart, not the brain

and the first thing atheists say when they cross the veil, is "Crap. They were right all along. I hate it when that happens."
Yes,we should have listened to the theists on C-D Forum too late now.
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Old 03-05-2010, 01:20 AM
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 1,991,722 times
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Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
If atheist can't prove that god doesn't exist, then how do monotheist prove that their is only one god?
No son (or offspring) did Allah beget, nor is there any ilah (god) along with Him. (If there had been many gods), then each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have tried to overcome others! Glorified be Allah above all that they attribute to Him!
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:32 AM
Location: Kentucky
1,090 posts, read 1,953,323 times
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Originally Posted by noland123 View Post
Yes,we should have listened to the theists on C-D Forum too late now.
Egotistical, don't you think? What if your brand of theism is wrong? What if you wake up the day after your death as a worm? Are you going to think "I should've listened to the Buddhists on C-D Forum. Too late now."?
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:16 AM
5,463 posts, read 5,784,189 times
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Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Now that was the first thing that you have written that made sense, from a theological standpoint.
Not so fast. There's no reason to assume that knowing a particular being exists takes away the "spiritual journey" towards worshiping it. Believers know about god plus the existence of lots of other things, and yet they only worship god. So there's obviously more to the process than just knowledge of existence. Knowing something exists doesn't eliminate the need for faith or spiritual growth or whatever to get from there to worshiping it.
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