U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-04-2010, 11:47 AM
 
2,893 posts, read 5,173,828 times
Reputation: 1973

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjtwet View Post
how does man exist?
even if you claim you do not know the origins of man does mean even if you have faith in the belief you do not know the origins of man.
Uh, what?

Quote:
If you do not know the origin of man by default there must be some faith that god did and there is some faith science did.
No. If I do not know the origin of man, I do not know the origin of man. And that's all. I am not required to answer every question that is asked.

Quote:
Claiming ignorance does not change the fact you have faith, even if you claim faith in ignorance.
Faith in what? That there is an answer to the origin of man? That's not faith, that's is another aspect of knowledge. So, I may not know the answer to the square root of 29387439873, but I know there *is* an answer.


Quote:
I do not see why an atheist denies they have faith. Faith in things does not have to be religious.

Does an atheist have faith that the sun will rise? Facts point to it, but you can not be sure until it does, One day it will not rise.
Faith does not equal expectation. I expect that the sun will rise, because all evidence supports that expectation. I have no faith.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-04-2010, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth Texas
12,482 posts, read 8,524,810 times
Reputation: 2525
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
Uh, what?



No. If I do not know the origin of man, I do not know the origin of man. And that's all. I am not required to answer every question that is asked.



Faith in what? That there is an answer to the origin of man? That's not faith, that's is another aspect of knowledge. So, I may not know the answer to the square root of 29387439873, but I know there *is* an answer.




Faith does not equal expectation. I expect that the sun will rise, because all evidence supports that expectation. I have no faith.
you have faith but just choose to deny it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2010, 12:06 PM
 
2,893 posts, read 5,173,828 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjtwet View Post
you have faith but just choose to deny it.
Prove it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2010, 12:34 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,107,711 times
Reputation: 14878
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjtwet View Post
An atheist must believe that man came from somewhere.
Of course atheist believe that man came from "somewhere." Atheist like everybody else on the planet believe that man came from "somewhere."

Quote:
And you could not prove what you do not know.
I would think that would be fairly obvious.

Quote:
So belief in something you can not prove is faith
Belief and faith have two very different etymologies and while they are commonly used as synonyms they have two distinct usages, please take note of their religious and secular applications.

Merriam-Webster

Belief: n,

1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidenceis placed in some person or thing.

2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Faith: n,

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions

2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

While you may deem this to simply a semantical distinction it is not. The Catholic Church does not talk about the Articles of Belief for a reason.

As previously stated, ad infinitum, we atheist believe that the scientific evidence points to a possible origin of man and the universe. We have confidence that evidence is correct. To have faith in those conclusions, would require fealty to those conclusions even in the face of contradictory evidence. That is the problem with many theist and faith, despite countrevailing evidence, your faith stands in the way of objectively considering the evidence that has been accumulated over the course of scientific history.

Last edited by ovcatto; 03-04-2010 at 12:45 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2010, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth Texas
12,482 posts, read 8,524,810 times
Reputation: 2525
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
Prove it.
you say you expect the sun to come up tomorrow.
but you can not prove it will .
your expect ion is on probability based on past performance. However there is that chance the sun will burn out so the probability is not 100%.
So you have faith in the high probability that it will occur.

expectation is based on probability the probability is not quite 100% So you can only have faith in the probability since it is not a certainty
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2010, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth Texas
12,482 posts, read 8,524,810 times
Reputation: 2525
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Of course atheist believe that man came from "somewhere." Atheist like everybody else on the planet believe that man came from "somewhere."



I would think that would be fairly obvious.



Belief and faith have two very different etymologies and while they are commonly used as synonyms they have two distinct usages, please take note of their religious and secular applications.

Merriam-Webster

Belief: n,

1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidenceis placed in some person or thing.

2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Faith: n,

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions

2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

While you may deem this to simply a semantical distinction it is not. The Catholic Church does not talk about the Articles of Belief for a reason.

As previously stated, ad infinitum, we atheist believe that the scientific evidence points to a possible origin of man and the universe. We believe that evidence is correct. To have faith in those conclusions, would require fealty to those conclusions even in the face of contradictory evidence. That is the problem with many theist and faith, despite countrevailing evidence, your faith stands in the way of objectively considering the evidence that has been accumulated over the course of scientific history.
Once again from your defintion

(1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

You have no proof of the origin of man.
So your faith is in science
but it is still faith
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2010, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Texas
32,663 posts, read 17,727,641 times
Reputation: 18753
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjtwet View Post
well tell me by science absolute proof of where man came from

Science isn't afraid of not having a complete answer. That's why they keep looking and continue to question standing explanations. Apparently it bothers you, though.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2010, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Texas
32,663 posts, read 17,727,641 times
Reputation: 18753
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
I like:

Atheism is to religion as bald is to hair color.

That's a good one.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2010, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Texas
32,663 posts, read 17,727,641 times
Reputation: 18753
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjtwet View Post
how does man exist?
even if you claim you do not know the origins of man does mean even if you have faith in the belief you do not know the origins of man.

If you do not know the origin of man by default there must be some faith that god did and there is some faith science did.

Claiming ignorance does not change the fact you have faith, even if you claim faith in ignorance.

I do not see why an atheist denies they have faith. Faith in things does not have to be religious.

Does an atheist have faith that the sun will rise? Facts point to it, but you can not be sure until it does, One day it will not rise.

Anticipating a sunrise isn't an article of faith.

Maybe you can't grasp that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2010, 12:53 PM
 
2,893 posts, read 5,173,828 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjtwet View Post
you say you expect the sun to come up tomorrow.
but you can not prove it will .
your expect ion is on probability based on past performance. However there is that chance the sun will burn out so the probability is not 100%.
So you have faith in the high probability that it will occur.

expectation is based on probability the probability is not quite 100% So you can only have faith in the probability since it is not a certainty
That is not faith. You are stretching the meaning of the word to try and... I dunno do something.

Whatever. I have a strong expectation the sun will rise, based on scientific theory and supporting evidence. If you wish to rename this as "faith" it only diminishes the value, significance, and poignancy of spiritual faith.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top