Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Your oppinion on Creation?
You're a heretic for even asking this question! 5 5.75%
I believe in 7 day creation, but I don't think the days were literal 24 hour days. 16 18.39%
I believe that God created the earth, but used evolution to get us where we are now. 19 21.84%
Other 47 54.02%
Voters: 87. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-18-2007, 01:45 PM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,792,259 times
Reputation: 1247

Advertisements

I think the following sums up my beliefs on evolution pretty good.

"Evolutionists have "Physics Envy." They tell the public that the science behind evolution is the same science that sent people to the moon and cures diseases. It's not.

The science behind evolution is not empirical, but forensic. Because evolution took place in history, its scientific investigations are after the fact—no testing, no observations, no repeatability, no falsification, nothing at all like physics. . . . I think this is what the public discerns—that evolution is just a bunch of just-so stories disguised as legitimate science."

John Chaikowsky, "Geology v. Physics," Geotimes (vol. 50, April 2005), p. 6.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-18-2007, 02:47 PM
 
9,763 posts, read 10,525,531 times
Reputation: 2052
Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
I think the following sums up my beliefs on evolution pretty good.
Except that none of that is true.

This sums up what creationists like Chaikowsky do: Lie.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2007, 02:54 PM
 
9,763 posts, read 10,525,531 times
Reputation: 2052
Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
Creationists don’t pretend that any knowledge, science included, can be pursued without presuppositions (ex: prior religious or philosophical beliefs). Creationists affirm that creation cannot ultimately be separated from the Bible any more than evolution can ultimately be separated from its naturalistic starting point.
Do you have the same problem with atomic theory? Tectonic plate theory? Do you believe Jesus holds atoms together and God moves the continents? If not, why do you only have issues with a biological theory and not with other naturalistic theories?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2007, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Maine
22,917 posts, read 28,263,704 times
Reputation: 31229
Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
Creationists affirm that creation cannot ultimately be separated from the Bible...
Sure it can. God was the Creator long before the Bible was written.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2007, 05:04 PM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,792,259 times
Reputation: 1247
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Do you have the same problem with atomic theory? Tectonic plate theory? Do you believe Jesus holds atoms together and God moves the continents? If not, why do you only have issues with a biological theory and not with other naturalistic theories?
Atoms and their properties are observable and I believe God created the elements and put them into motion and His sustaining power allows His creation to continue forward. IMO, atoms obey physical/natural laws because God created those laws to govern His creation and the laws don't change because God doesn't change. Since evolution is nothing more than everything arriving via random chance, why should atoms obey any laws; shouldn't they act randomly?

Plate tectonics are observable (faults/earthquakes) and I personally agree with plate tectonics. Some creationists don't. I disagree with evolutionists as to how long it took the continents to move apart and when. I believe there was a supercontinent on the earth in the beginning (Gen. 1:9-10). I also believe the breaking up of the supercontinent happened during the year-long, global Noachian Flood. There is a computer model of catastrophic plate tectonics involving runaway subduction developed by Dr. John Baumgardner (Ph.D in geophysics working from Los Alamos Nat'l Lab) that provides a scientific explanation for plate tectonics that is consistent with the Bible. His work has been independently duplicated and verified by others (*see below). It also addresses the problems with 'slow and gradual' plate tectonics such as rapid magnetic field reversals as found on the ocean floor.

I also dispute planet formation theories and the 'Big Bang' in general. My dismissal of evolutionary ideals is not limited to biology!

Blessings to all

*S.A. Weinstein, Catastrophic Overturn of the Earth’s Mantle Driven by Multiple Phase Changes and Internal Heat Generation, Geophysical Research Letters, 20:101-104, 1993.
P.J. Tackley, D.J. Stevenson, G.A. Glatzmaier, and G. Schubert, Effects of an Endothermic Phase Transition at 670 km Depth on Spherical Mantle Convection, Nature, 361:699-704, 1993.
L. Moresi and V. Solomatov, Mantle Convection with a Brittle Lithosphere: Thoughts on Global Tectonic Styles of the Earth and Venus, Geophysical Journal International, 133:669-682, 1998.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2007, 05:10 PM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,792,259 times
Reputation: 1247
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Except that none of that is true.

This sums up what creationists like Chaikowsky do: Lie.
This kind of retort always makes me laugh. Don't attack his credentials, because you can't as he is well educated. Call him a liar because he doesn't buy into evolution. Evolution, IMHO, is the biggest lie perpetrated in modern times.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2007, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,915 posts, read 18,622,146 times
Reputation: 5524
mams1559 wrote:
Quote:
I also dispute planet formation theories and the 'Big Bang' in general.
Alpha and I are both reading a book called "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist" which gives a religious perspective on the big bang. The authors claim that the big bang provides one of the strongest supports to an intelligent designer that they're aware of. It's actually a well written book that you might want to read. Yes, I read books with a different point of view from time to time to get an idea of how other people think. I believe I'll always be an atheist but the authors have tried to use the scientific method to prove the existence of God so it really is an interesting read.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2007, 05:42 PM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,792,259 times
Reputation: 1247
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
Alpha and I are both reading a book called "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist" which gives a religious perspective on the big bang. The authors claim that the big bang provides one of the strongest supports to an intelligent designer that they're aware of. It's actually a well written book that you might want to read. Yes, I read books with a different point of view from time to time to get an idea of how other people think. I believe I'll always be an atheist but the authors have tried to use the scientific method to prove the existence of God so it really is an interesting read.
I'd be willing to read it. I'm also open to other points of view to see what's out there. If I can read Dawkins (and survive LOL) I'm strong enough in my beliefs to read that and see what they have to say on the subject.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2007, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,915 posts, read 18,622,146 times
Reputation: 5524
mams, the authors are Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek. You read Dawkins? Very good choice. You see, we're both open minded!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2007, 07:15 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, Texas
219 posts, read 717,967 times
Reputation: 114
Quote:
Normal, operational science is studying and learing about observable and repeatable processes in the present. This is why we understand our environment, gravity, flight, space travel, computers, technology, etc. etc.

But evolution is speculation/conjecture/hypothesis based upon the unobservable and unrepeatable past. Evolution is not observable or repeatable and is the starting point or presupposition of many scientists who use evolutionary theory to draw conclusions of fossils and other evidences based upon evolution's presupposition that everything arose from nothing at random under naturalistic laws and discounts devine creation a priori.

Creationists don’t pretend that any knowledge, science included, can be pursued without presuppositions (ex: prior religious or philosophical beliefs). Creationists affirm that creation cannot ultimately be separated from the Bible any more than evolution can ultimately be separated from its naturalistic starting point.
I think what is had here is a misunderstanding of the fundamentals of scientific inquiry. Such inquiry is not limited to only direct observation in present time. Such is only one aspect of the process of inquiry. Let’s look at observation. The laymanistic concept of observation is to watch – to active “see” something occur as an active observer with one’s own eyes. Such is based on the idealistic version of scientific methodology in simplified terms everyone is introduced to as a child and continually given throughout their public education. However, it is not that simplistic.

Observation itself in the context of science is not limited to seeing the “here and now”. Were it to be limited by this, our knowledge would be severely limited.

Observation can be divided into two basic categories – direct and indirect. Direct observation would encompass the “here and now” idea. An example would be a primatologist such as Jane Goodall observing her chimps in their day to day activities. Another would be a chemist observing the reaction of two chemical interacting.

Much of what is observed in science is not a “here and now” observation of a process. Plate tectonics has been mentioned. We cannot actively sit and watch the continental plates move and shift – they move too slowly, centimeters per year. Our observations from many other aspects of the process are culled together to provide us with the information on this process. Such is the same for evolution. We have indirect observation of a larger process.

Also, let it not be misunderstood that evolution happened only “in the past”. It is a continual process which continues on even now. Allele frequencies can be observed in populations rising to prominence over time such as a study done over a 30 year period of the Galapagos finches by Peter and Rosemary Grant (Grant and Grant, 2005). It would be ridiculous for someone to sit and watch for 30 years a population of finches – it wouldn’t seem as thought anything had taken place either due to our perceptual abilities therefore we develop methods to “show” us this taking place. Physicists developed the double slit experiment to examine the particle/wave duality of photons.

Geologists cannot sit and watch most of the processes they study take place – they occur over “geological time” in most instances and is far beyond the lifetime of a human being. Science is an inductive process for the most part. Parts are taken to give us a picture of the whole – hence the often used “puzzle” analogy.

Now, are observations made in evolutionary research? Of course they are – both direct and indirect. Direct observations can come in the form of experimental observations made in, say, genetic testing and comparison. The Chimpanzee Sequencing and Analysis Consortium did this in 2005 when they did a comparison of the human and chimp genomes and provided a divergence of ~1.23% between the two on a base by base comparison of the over 3 billion bases. This verified earlier studies which concluded nearly exact figures independently (Chen and Li, 2001; Ebersberger, Metzler, Schwarz and Paabo, 2002). Here we also have examples of independent verification through experimentation and observation.

Many people will not deny that “micro”evolution occurs. Which is simply evolution below the species level (Mayr, 2001). For some strange reason it is not considered “evolution”. However by the very definition of evolution:

Quote:
…the descent of modern organisms with modification from preexisting life-forms; strictly speaking, any change in the proportions of different genotypes in a population from one generation to the next (Audesirk, Audesirk and Byers, pp. G-9)
Microevolution is evolution. It is a part of the whole, not some independent process. It is governed by the driving force of natural selection within a population. One of the most often cited examples is that of bacterial resistance to anti-biotics. This why a physician will tell you to take the anti-biotics until they are all gone and not to stop when you feel better. Any one that hasn’t heeded that advice may tell you that the illness can return and is harder to battle than before.

This assertion is usually followed by the denunciation of “macro”evolution. Which many will call “evolution” even though it is only one aspect of the whole. Macro is simply evolution above the species level. The separating event is the speciation event. That is the so-called dividing line between the two. Many will clain that speciation has never been observed. However this is from the ignorance of the term “observation” within science as well as the concept of speciation and of a species itself. Most will ask quite laughably for one organism to “give birth to” another organism such as asking to see a “monkey” give birth to a human. Which is quite ridiculous and the theory makes no such assertion. One example of observation of a speciation event happened in the lab of Theodosius Dobzhansky in an experimental population of Drosophila (Dobzhansky and Pavlovsky, 1971). With the progress made in genetic analysis, evidence for speciation events can be and has been shown time and time again – even in our own lineage as I mentioned earlier. All this is supported by evidence found in other disciplines as well. Which support, predictions made by the theory – another aspect of science – prediction.

With evolution we also have a multi-disciplinary convergence of data to give us a “view” of the whole process. We have geological data, genetic data, biochemical data, ecological data, anatomical data, atomic data et cetera which all utilized to evaluate many aspects of the whole. And like science itself, the knowledge is built successively upon prior substantiated knowledge. These lines of evidence converge from many disciplines.

Now conceptual and conjectural would imply that there is no substantiation of these ideas by empirical means. No, data from experimentation and so forth to support these propositions – this view of evolution is simply incorrect.

Repeatability has been shown in many aspects of inquiry – one which I gave in the chimp/human genome comparison example. Were we not to find consistent results in inquiry – this would destroy the repeatability. That is to say as an example – were we to find continuously different divergence rates for related organisms – study one give 10% while study two give 30% and study 3 give 1% (assuming they were all looking at the same thing and utilizing the same methodology) then there would be a problem that would need to be examined. However, this is not what is seen. Relative and absolute dating methodologies show similarities in their estimates, genetic analyses show similar conclusions (such I showed earlier), timeframes agree with ecological changes such as the rise of habitual bipedalism and the change in climate and the transformation from a jungle to a savannah…on and on.

Can these aspects be falsified? Sure. We don’t find any Devonian mammals in the fossil record for instance. Were we to continually see mammal specimens predating what is known as the terrestrial transition – there would be a problem, obviously. However, we do not see this. People have attempted to manufacture falsifying examples such as the Paluxy man-tracks. Another example would be finding some true chimeric creatures as many evolution opponents often request to be presented with such as a “dog-duck” or something equally ridiculous. Another would be to have an organism give birth to an organism of another species, again as many evolution opponents claim evolution predicts should happen – a woman giving birth to a chimpanzee would definitely be a falsification of not only aspects of evolutionary theory but much of what we know about biology in reproduction, genetics, medicine et al.

One last thing is that evolution does not explain nor propose that “everything arose from nothing at random under naturalistic laws”. It makes no claims into the origin of life itself at all. It also does not assert that everything arose de novo from “nothing” – it is creationists that make this claim – the claim that God created life ex nihilo and then fashioned man from clay and woman from a rib (it is surprising the amount of people that believe men and women have a different number of ribs because of this story).

Evolution has processes which are at work within it that are random and non-random – it is not some giant chaotic game of complete chance that some people would like to characterize it as. It also does not explain how planets form or the origin of the universe either. Contending that evolutionary theory does explain these items is completely incorrect and places skepticism on the accuracy or even existence of that individual's knowledge of the theory in the first place.

References:

Grant, P. and Grant, R. (2005). Evolution of Character Displacement in Darwin's Finches. Science, 313, 224-226.

Chimpanzee Sequencing and Analysis Consortium (2005). Initial sequence of the chimpanzee genome and comparison with the human genome. Nature, 437, 69-87.

Chen, F. and Li, W. (2001). Genomic Divergences between Humans and Other Hominoids and the Effective Population Size of the Common Ancestor of Humans and Chimpanzees. American Journal of Human Genetics, 68, 444-456.

Ebersberger, I., Schwarz, C., Metzler, D. and Pääbo, S. (2002) Genome wide DNA sequence comparison between humans and chimpanzees. American Journal of Human Genetics, 70, 1490-1497.

Audesirk, T., Audesirk, G., & Byers, B. (2002). Biology: Life on earth. (6th ed.). Upper Saddle River: Prentice Hall.

Dobzhansky, T. and O. Pavlovsky. 1971. Experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila. Nature. 230, 289-292.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:43 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top