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Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
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Originally Posted by Art R
OK, who created God?
It would be a paradox to presume something created God, because whatever it was that created God would itself be God, and so on and so forth back through time.
The bottom line is, you guys can't prove He doesn't exist.
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Where does space start and stop?
Interesting thought that my dad and I talk about sometimes. He seems to think that since the universe is finite, there is nothing beyond it. I counter his argument by saying that "nothing" has to itself be suspended in something. Otherwise, where is the universe? The only way to answer that question is by saying it has to be somewhere. It can't be nowhere, because we can clearly observe its existence.
You likewise have no evidence that there isn't a deity. What kind of evidence would you want to prove one existed?
That's really the reason I'm an atheist. I would think that if God was real that it would be plainly obvious to everyone and there wouldn't be such a thing as faith. I would want the same kind of evidence for everything else that I know exists. It would have to be something that can be observed by anyone by using our senses. It never made any sense to me that everything in the realm of religion is invisible including God, satan, angels, demons, souls, heaven and hell. No one has ever seen any one of these things and they can't be detected by any means known to man so why would anyone think that they actually exist in the first place? This dilema has led me to conclude that none of these things are real and that's why I'm an atheist.
This question wasn't aimed at me but here's another POV. I definitely have always wished for evidence of a God, not because I'm a scientist (my sophomore Biology grades prove it, and astronomy? Oh fawgeddit)...not because I'm an atheist, I'm not. But simply because it's hard, very, very, very hard to love someone and not know if that person (or deity) loves you back.
God doesn't speak to us with words and I'm not big on the "oh, he's answering, the answer is just 'no'" thing. I mean if it's no...he should SAY no. Talking and talking and talking to the air and never getting a response that a human could understand--like words--without having to "seek it out" is hard. It's like unrequited love.
If you've ever had a relationship where the person stopped loving you first, how long did it take you before you stopped making the occasional phone call or sending the occasional letter? If you're normal and not a stalker, probably a matter of weeks. Maybe months if it was a very long-term affair. At the most. Then, your side of things dwindled, to match the fact that you weren't receiving anything in return.
People say those who "lack faith" are just being stubborn, just "refusing" God or what have you. That isn't always true. Some of us just start getting hurt after a few years or decades of never getting a certain answer. It's supposed to be "a matter of faith" but I can't imagine turning to another person and saying, "If you keep sending me love letters for the next 70 years even though I never answer them, or answer them so subtly that you have to reach way down to even think they might be an answer, THEN I'll respond."
So, not every person wants evidence because the person is hard-hearted, a snot, influenced by Satan, or blah blah. Not every person who doesn't subscribe to a certain religion is cold-hearted. Don't know why I wanted to put that in...but I did. I get a little sick of the viewpoint that non-"believers" (which always in my experience means non-Christians) "demand" evidence just because we feel like being far from God. Maybe we want evidence because we don't want to feel like we're talking to the air.
I think that's part of why I'm not a Christian. Christianity demands that you believe in something improbable, based on no hard evidence, OR ELSE, meaning...LOVE THIS MAN or YOU GO TO HELL. It's so...odd.
(For the record...the closest to my belief system I guess would be Deist...I absolutely believe in God, no question...but whether he's active in people's lives day to day is debatable. I don't really believe in the Bible. All that stuff...most of you probably know this...but, just in case.)
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ian6479
I think it is important to remember that if the universe was not created by the Big Bang, it doesn't automatically mean that it must have been God. There are probably infinate possibilities, but if one fails God doesn't necessarily fill the void!
Then what does? What if someday scientists decide it wasn't a big bang that created the universe. What new theory will they come up with to explain it? And then what if that theory fails? What then? Since you say there are probably infinite possibilities, wouldn't that mean that a supreme being was one of them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer
"Perfection" is a human construct and is subjective. As far as the universe goes, things are neither perfect nor imperfect. They just "are."
How do you explain the existence of an equilateral spiral in nature? What are the odds that a random big bang would create such a thing? Or a DNA strand for that matter? Are you saying that there is NOTHING perfect?
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy
WCRob wrote:
That's really the reason I'm an atheist. I would think that if God was real that it would be plainly obvious to everyone and there wouldn't be such a thing as faith. I would want the same kind of evidence for everything else that I know exists. It would have to be something that can be observed by anyone by using our senses. It never made any sense to me that everything in the realm of religion is invisible including God, satan, angels, demons, souls, heaven and hell. No one has ever seen any one of these things and they can't be detected by any means known to man so why would anyone think that they actually exist in the first place? This dilema has led me to conclude that none of these things are real and that's why I'm an atheist.
But you still can't prove they don't exist. In my opinion, it IS plainly obvious that an intelligent creator exists.
That's really the reason I'm an atheist. I would think that if God was real that it would be plainly obvious to everyone and there wouldn't be such a thing as faith. I would want the same kind of evidence for everything else that I know exists. It would have to be something that can be observed by anyone by using our senses. It never made any sense to me that everything in the realm of religion is invisible including God, satan, angels, demons, souls, heaven and hell. No one has ever seen any one of these things and they can't be detected by any means known to man so why would anyone think that they actually exist in the first place? This dilema has led me to conclude that none of these things are real and that's why I'm an atheist.
Well, as a charismatic Christian, I have experienced things that I think go beyond "faith" but I think you would likely dismiss them so I'm reticent to go there in this venue. But as I've said before, fool that I am here goes- For one thing, I have personally experienced the tangible presence of God in corporate worship to the point that it's almost difficult to stand. No I couldn't see the presence of God but I certainly could feel the presence of God. This was a physical feeling I mean, not emotional. I have personally experienced the always controversial speaking in tongues. I have also personally known people who are intelligent, stable individuals who say that they have seen angels. I have not personally, but I believe their testimony because I know them. I know, MG, that you don't know me personally. I'm just a voice on the internet and could be nuttier than a fruitcake in real life. But I hope you can tell by my previous posts that I'm at least reasonably rational and intelligent, and give what I've said at least some thought.
Someone brought up the question as to where the universe begins and ends. Well, that is kind of a tricky question and since we have never been to the end of the universe I guess it'd be hard to say. Now, based on the Big Bang theory, and I know I'll catch flak from Christians, but it is estimated that the farthest thing from us is approximately 14 billion light years away. Now, we are not at the center of the universe, just merely a random point 14 billion light years from the farthest known thing. How, do we know this? Well, by examining the red shift of hypernovas that have exploded. So, let's just say we are in the dead center of the universe. If everything exploded from a central point and expanded at a constant rate for the past 14 billion years than you have the edge of the universe and the approx age of the universe. So what's at the end of the universe? Well, nothing basically. It's just devoid space. There are no planets, stars, moons, light, water, asteroids, or even subatomic particles. I brought this up in another post, but what if there are several universes out there? In other words take an infinite amount of space. Say our entire universe came from the Big Bang. And 40 billion light years there is another universe expanding towards us as at a similar rate. Think of it like galaxies but on a grander scale. Let's say the universe is 20 billion years old. That means to travel from one end of the universe to the other it would take you 40 billion light years to traverse the universe traveling at the speed of light. If you want to talk about space, and not matter or mass than you could say that space is infinite but our universe is not.
You see, I'm not claiming that there isn't a God. I'm saying that I need more evidence than your word before I'll consider the possibility.
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Going out on a limb...
here goes- For one thing, I have personally experienced the tangible presence of God in corporate worship to the point that it's almost difficult to stand. No I couldn't see the presence of God but I certainly could feel the presence of God. This was a physical feeling I mean, not emotional. I have personally experienced the always controversial speaking in tongues. I have also personally known people who are intelligent, stable individuals who say that they have seen angels. I have not personally, but I believe their testimony because I know them. I know, MG, that you don't know me personally. I'm just a voice on the internet and could be nuttier than a fruitcake in real life.
But I hope you can tell by my previous posts that I'm at least reasonably rational and intelligent, and give what I've said at least some thought.
