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Old 03-08-2010, 02:28 AM
 
23 posts, read 37,980 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit View Post
Would it be a strength for a homeschooling parent to teach from a math book that agrees with their belief that a triangle has eight sides or that 2+2=5?
Absolutely not. But then that is such an absurd hypothetical that it would never happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit View Post
I wouldn't call laymen selectively choosing one's own ideas of what is "fact" over what proven, unbiased science and reality itself tell us about the world and universe a "strength" when it comes to education.
The weakness of the home school is the possibility for the students to end up with an inferior education. This usually happens because the parents are too busy or too lazy or too poor to put the work into making sure their kids get a superior education. Buying a Science curriculum and having the kids work through it is the easy way, and usually is comparable or even better than what they would get in the public school. But it's subject to the problem you pointed out. How do you make sure your students are not picking up superstitions in their education?

The strength of the home school is the possibility of putting in the work necessary for the students to end up with a superior education. Suppose you were to follow the Robinson recommendation. The student spends several years learning basic Reading, Writing, and Math skills. They read 200 or so of the best books in the History of the world, they learn Math from Algebra through Calculus, and they write tons of book reports, short stories, speeches, and research papers. In the process they also learn how to think logically, analyze what they read, and express themselves. They learn how to spot and avoid the most common fallacies, and how to check for obvious counterexamples and paradoxes. Then they get to their Science curriculum. First thing they do is look at different sources. Not only do they read whatever curriculum they buy, but now they go to the original sources. If they haven't already read them, they read the account of the Creation from the Bible, and the Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin. Then they read what kinds of advances we've seen since Darwin died, and things that Intelligent Design proponents have written. Now they can look at things like "proven, unbiased Science and reality itself" and spit out the first few obvious counterexamples. What about the Flagellum controversy, or the how did Eyeballs evolve? Or how does Evolution even try to explain Aging? You know, the disease that kills more people than anything else? What possible advantage could it give a species to get feeble and slow just at the point where they are getting the most experience and wisdom? Maybe they can pop out on the internet, to places like this forum, and join the discussion. They also have to know how to deal with Cognitive Dissonance. There are things in the Creation story that just don't add up. Maybe they just say "I don't know how that could work. Maybe someday after I get resurrected, I'll ask God about that." There are also things in Evolution that just don't add up. Maybe they just say, "There are things we can't explain yet. Maybe in a few years another brilliant Scientist will figure that one out." Everybody has to pick their brand of Cognitive Dissonance.

In any case, they'll know a lot more about the issues than their public schooled peers that only got one side of the story. They'll know more than most of us even, and be a lot more prepared to make up their own minds and defend their own conclusions. Maybe they'll end up with different beliefs than their parents. And that might not always be such a bad thing.
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Texas
1,303 posts, read 1,805,458 times
Reputation: 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
That's because you keep covering your ears and eyes when the evidence is presented to you.
That and some people don't ever bother to learn anything about evolution in the first place. This is evidenced by all the "just a theory" and "I've never seen it happen" comments.

Then again, I guess when you've already made up your mind, there's no need to bother.

It's no more absurd than 2+2 = 5. Deniers apparently don't even understand how silly they sound. Some people's egos just can't accept the fact that we're not specialty separated from the rest of nature.
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:49 AM
 
310 posts, read 488,280 times
Reputation: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by psr13 View Post
Ha. As thought evolution has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. If it has, I haven't seen the evidence. I have known many well educated scientists who do not believe in evolution. Creationism and young earth creationism are not the same thing either. You should really know what you're talking about before stating such things.
If you deny that the theory of evolution is proven fact, then you are either wholly ignorant of what it says or you are...prevaricating.
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Old 03-08-2010, 08:30 AM
 
1,745 posts, read 1,826,840 times
Reputation: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit
Would it be a strength for a homeschooling parent to teach from a math book that agrees with their belief that a triangle has eight sides or that 2+2=5?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarmerDan View Post
Absolutely not. But then that is such an absurd hypothetical that it would never happen.
On the contrary. That is exactly what is happening when parents choose a "science" curriculum that includes creationism as its core. They are in effect choosing a curriculum that teaches 2+2=5, that the sky is purple and that a triangle has eight sides, simply because a book written by bronze age ignorants says so.

Quote:
The weakness of the home school is the possibility for the students to end up with an inferior education.
And this is exactly what is happening with these homeschooled children with religious/creationists parents, at least in the science dept. And likely history as well.


Quote:
If they haven't already read them, they read the account of the Creation from the Bible, and the Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin.
What do these two works have in common with one another? Nothing! One is a [plagiarized] fairytale authored by bronze age desert tribesmen, the other is a legitimate scientific analysis of natural selection based on empirical evidence, albeit outdated in this day and age. Regardless, they are not on equal footing as peer materials to be studied and compared with one another.

And why only the myth from the Bible? There are dozens, if not hundreds of other creation myths that are just as (in)valid and (un)believable as the Biblical tale.

Quote:
Then they read what kinds of advances we've seen since Darwin died, and things that Intelligent Design proponents have written. Now they can look at things like "proven, unbiased Science and reality itself" and spit out the first few obvious counterexamples. What about the Flagellum controversy, or the how did Eyeballs evolve?
There is no flagellum controversy, and how eyeballs evolved is well established.

Quote:
Or how does Evolution even try to explain Aging? You know, the disease that kills more people than anything else?
The mechanics of aging are becoming less of a mystery every day. In the not too distant future we will likely see people living two hundred years or more. This is all thanks to sciences associated with evolutionary discoveries and associated principles.


Quote:
In any case, they'll know a lot more about the issues than their public schooled peers that only got one side of the story.
There are no sides of the story. There is only reality and fact, which is what science (i.e. evolution) deals with. Biblical creationism is not the "other side" of science and evolution any more than alchemy is the other side of chemistry or voodoo is the other side of modern medicine.

Quote:
They'll know more than most of us even, and be a lot more prepared to make up their own minds and defend their own conclusions. Maybe they'll end up with different beliefs than their parents. And that might not always be such a bad thing.
Again, this isn't about beliefs or making up one's own mind. A student can make up their mind that their belief the moon is made of cheese or that the earth is flat is correct, but that doesn't change reality nor does it lead to a legitimate education.
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Old 03-08-2010, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,070 posts, read 4,965,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psr13 View Post
Wrong again. You guys really should stop making assumptions. I took biology at a public school with a very pro-evolution teacher.
Then why do you think evolution is a lie. Is it because you look at a blade of grass and don't understand how it could happen through natural processes or is it because the bible tells you so? Either way it's a denial of the facts. As I said before, if you use the scientific method you will discover that creationism is false and all the evidence points to evolution. Also, what else do you think what other 'lies' public schools are teaching children? Is it the fact they say gravity exists?
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:02 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,920,969 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balvenie View Post
All those homeschoolers claiming that their kids are so much better educated than other children are just lying to themselves and their kids.

Http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100306/...hool_evolution
That is the point of home schooling your children, so that they wont be indoctrinated by a slanted school system. It's not like evolution has been proven true. It is mearly a hypotheses poorly supported by conjecture.

I am sorry to say but the American school system is not that great of an institution of learning anyways.

I say let parrents have a chance to raise their children the way they want.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Earth. For now.
1,198 posts, read 1,711,678 times
Reputation: 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
That is the point of home schooling your children, so that they wont be indoctrinated by a slanted school system. It's not like evolution has been proven true. It is mearly a hypotheses poorly supported by conjecture.
Wow. Such a blatant lie. Were you home-schooled?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
I say let parrents have a chance to raise their children the way they want.
OK. But when those children choose to live in OUR society, we all have an interest in how they were raised. And being raised in ignorance does not contribute to our society.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:20 AM
 
2,893 posts, read 5,166,659 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astron1000 View Post
Wow. Such a blatant lie. Were you home-schooled?



OK. But when those children choose to live in OUR society, we all have an interest in how they were raised. And being raised in ignorance does not contribute to our society.

Sure it does. Americans have an education that is disproportionately slanted towards academics over vocations. What good is it for people to "know stuff" when they can't "do stuff"? Does it matter if your auto mechanic is a Creationist or doesn't know caculus?

I don't care if people teach their kid creation and never even show them the word evolution. It just doesn't factor into most people's lives.

We spend way to much time and money and effort on education that people just don't need or want. Let's face it, not all Americans can be white-collar folks. Someone has to cook and clean and fix stuff and after the basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic are mastered, there should be less push to learn "everything".
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:35 AM
 
1,745 posts, read 1,826,840 times
Reputation: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
That is the point of home schooling your children, so that they wont be indoctrinated by a slanted school system.
No, the point of homeschooling your children, at least if you are a Bible believing fundamentalist, is to to shield you child from the truth and reality that would shatter the hold your outdated belief system has on them and allow them to think for themselves.

Quote:
It's not like evolution has been proven true. It is mearly a hypotheses poorly supported by conjecture.
Wrong. Evolution has indeed been proven true and it is supported by ALL the evidence from the DNA in every living thing to the very rocks of the earth itself.

Quote:
I am sorry to say but the American school system is not that great of an institution of learning anyways.
It's not perfect but is certainly better than religious indoctrination and brainwashing children with fairytales like creationism.

Quote:
I say let parrents have a chance to raise their children the way they want.
As long as they are teaching what your religion believes is correct, right?
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:32 PM
 
1,745 posts, read 1,826,840 times
Reputation: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by psr13 View Post
Ha. As thought evolution has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. If it has, I haven't seen the evidence.
Try going to a school some time. A real one, not one in your parents or churches basement or one that has "Bible" in its name. Heck, go to any legitimate museum of natural history.

Quote:
I have known many well educated scientists who do not believe in evolution
No, you haven't. I'd wager these so-called "scientists" you boast of are nothing more than the well known, well PAID, (and well refuted) shills from places like Answers In Genesis and Discovery Institute who earned their degree from evangelical diploma mills.

Quote:
Creationism and young earth creationism are not the same thing either. You should really know what you're talking about before stating such things.
I am well aware what creationism is, having been one for a good part of my life. Either way you look at it, creationism isn't science and doesn't deserve a place in any legitimate educational curriculum whether the classroom as at home or in a public school.
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