U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Happy Easter!
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-09-2010, 09:25 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,297,113 times
Reputation: 806

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Some of us accept all science and still have a place for God (not religion). Does science answer all the questions? No . . . but God does for theists ("Nature" does for atheists).

As a THEIST (NOT Creationist) "pot" speaking to all "kettles" . . . the perfectly "natural" tendency to denigrate one's opponent's intellectual skills with generic categorizations (stereotyping for those in Rio Linda . . . an example of same ) can have no other effect than to generate sarcasm (or worse) in response. Unless of course the respondent is truly Christ-like.
Originally Posted by Jazzymom
Some of us accept the science of evolution and still have a place for religion. Does science answer all the questions? No, but neither does the bible.

Why is it that "creationists" need to get sarcastic when the conversation does not go the way they want it?


Neither answers all questions because the final understanding is left to man and man is fallible. I also acknowledged that science does not answer all question and neither does the Bible. G-d may have all the answers but man who is limited may not ever understand all what is meant by every passage in the Bible.

Man has over the millennium struggled with what the bible says and there are many scholarly writings out there and many different ways of seeing the Bible and its writings. Just as there are 2 different religious traditions who see the bible in very different ways.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-09-2010, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,449 posts, read 13,915,518 times
Reputation: 6875
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
And epistemology should be in philosophy books. Oh, but let's not talk about philosophy, everyone knows that with Science here to answer all questions about "truth" philosophy, along with religion, is no longer needed.
Of all concepts taught or studied, religion is the only one that provides severe punishment for anyone who doubts - namely, eternity in Hell.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2010, 01:41 PM
 
1,745 posts, read 1,826,840 times
Reputation: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Man has over the millennium struggled with what the bible says and there are many scholarly writings out there and many different ways of seeing the Bible and its writings. Just as there are 2 different religious traditions who see the bible in very different ways.
Yes, but then, what does the Bible have to do with God? Nothing..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2010, 08:00 PM
 
23 posts, read 37,980 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
My main objection to home-schooling is the fact that unless a parents happens to be a certified school teacher that they aren't qualified to do the job. Teaching is a profession that requires a certain amount of education and certification. Just because someone has children doesn't mean that they have the skill sets and academic background required to teach them anything.
Well, you have a point here. I would hate to see my neighbor down the road try to teach a Math class at the local High School. She doesn't know the subject matter, doesn't know how to discipline a class of teen-agers, and doesn't know how to build that kind of curriculum, and doesn't know what kinds of rules and regulations she would have to adhere to.

However, as a practical matter, home schools are much easier to teach than public schools. I don't know any parents that don't have the skill sets and academic background required to teach one or two kids everything up through third grade. They have dramatically smaller class size. They don't have to deal with unruly students, office politics, or as many rules and regulations. They can buy or trade or download curriculum. And after a few years of teaching elementary age kids, they should have enough teaching skills to be able to teach teen-agers. As the students grow older, they don't rely on the teacher for subject expertise as much as textbooks, computer programs, internet sites, and mentors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
The home-schooling trend in America has almost exclusively been established and promoted by religious parents who became frustrated that their efforts at changing school text books and eliminating evolution from science books has been a complete failure so they've chosen to pursue a new tactic, removing their children from public schools. The result is children who miss out on the experience of interacting with other students, participating in sporting events, and enjoying the typical experience of growing up in a normal way.
I wouldn't know about other places in America, but for the local home schooler parents I know, Evolution is really a minor issue. Two of them had issues with how little progress the public schools were making with their kids who were slow learners. Two more just thought they could do a better job of educating their kids. One had issues with "other influences" (read: sex, drugs, bullies, and language) his older children had been exposed to. He figures if that is what the typical experience of growing up normal is these days, maybe it's not so bad to miss out. I thought it would be just easier to move to a smaller town, but I understand those things are starting to show up in even the smaller schools these days.

Good point about the sports. Also bands and choirs, drill teams, cheerleaders, plays and musicals, debate and speech teams, and all sorts of clubs. It isn't impossible for home schooled kids to get into these things, but it is a lot harder. Some more than others. The kid down the road goes to the High School for two hours every morning so he can play in the band and sing in the choir. He doesn't do any varsity sports, though. I think he played little league baseball, and I think he plays on a church basketball team, but it isn't the same. His dad thinks varsity sports are a major waste of time. He says spending 300 hours a year on a skill that he never used after he graduated was an inefficient use of time in his own life. He didn't want his kids to make the same mistake. I can kinda see his point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
It's also a disaster if they want to attend college and discover that their years of isolation have left them far behind other students. They also don't have classes in creationism in college so if they become interested in a subject like biology or medicine they're going to have to unlearn all of the brainwashing that they've been subjected to.
Maybe I just run with a different crowd, but I don't know any home schooled kids who had problems in college. There are some I know that I worry about, but they're not quite old enough yet. One of my home schooled great nephews just started college this year. He's sixteen. I certainly wouldn't use the word isolation to describe his schooling in any context. I'm also pretty sure he studied Evolution in his course work, as well as Creation Science. (Hey, don't laugh. Even some colleges actually have Creation Science courses.) Evolution is a hot button when it comes to home schooling. His Dad made sure he studied it pretty thoroughly.

I'm pretty sure the teaching ability of the parents is not the biggest challenge of home schooling. I don't think the teaching ability of the teachers is the biggest challenge in public schools, either. I wish it were.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2010, 08:39 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 2,951,508 times
Reputation: 909
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
My main objection to home-schooling is the fact that unless a parents happens to be a certified school teacher that they aren't qualified to do the job. Teaching is a profession that requires a certain amount of education and certification. Just because someone has children doesn't mean that they have the skill sets and academic background required to teach them anything.
I strongly disagree. Teaching is a profession, yes, but it is entirely possible and a common practice for people to teach themselves. The profession of a teacher is not that actual education, but of learning to control 30 kids crammed inside a room. I have been told repeatedly that job interviews for teachers are more an assessment of your presence and attitude and not about your qualifications and teaching skills. When it is only your child, you don't require teaching skills, you require simply the knowledge and patience to deliver that to your children.

Quote:
The home-schooling trend in America has almost exclusively been established and promoted by religious parents who became frustrated that their efforts at changing school text books and eliminating evolution from science books has been a complete failure so they've chosen to pursue a new tactic, removing their children from public schools. The result is children who miss out on the experience of interacting with other students, participating in sporting events, and enjoying the typical experience of growing up in a normal way.
Aside from the religious domination of home-schooling, children who don't go to public schools aren't generally missing out on that much. There are a myriad of public non-school sports programs, children play at parks all the time (not to mention communities offer plenty of opportunity to engage with out people. And of course, "normal life" is highly subjective, as normal does not mean average.

Quote:
It's also a disaster if they want to attend college and discover that their years of isolation have left them far behind other students.
A lot of colleges accept home-schooled students on the same grounds as public schooled ones, especially private schools. This is all with exception to religious fundamentalists teaching their children creationism. I'm talking the minority 20% that don't.

Quote:
They also don't have classes in creationism in college so if they become interested in a subject like biology or medicine they're going to have to unlearn all of the brainwashing that they've been subjected to.
Not quite.
Universities That Believe or Teach Biblical Creation Science

There is a school near me, Concordia University, that is a Lutheran--Missoury Synod, school. The sect is officially Young Earth Creationist, yet the school teaches evolution.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2010, 09:12 PM
 
2,893 posts, read 5,166,659 times
Reputation: 1973
I must spread reputation around before giving it to Konraden again.

But he is right on. People have been teaching each other long before the current school system was developed. I hate the idea that somehow, parents have been separated from their primary role as teachers.

Gah. There are ways that strangers can teach many kids effectively, and that kids can teach other kids, and that kids can teach themselves. But none of that is reflected in the Austrian style of education currently presented in America. Which is why in my opinion and experience, even average homeschooling generally produces better results that excellent public schooling.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2010, 09:19 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 2,951,508 times
Reputation: 909
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
I must spread reputation around before giving it to Konraden again.

But he is right on. People have been teaching each other long before the current school system was developed. I hate the idea that somehow, parents have been separated from their primary role as teachers.

Gah. There are ways that strangers can teach many kids effectively, and that kids can teach other kids, and that kids can teach themselves. But none of that is reflected in the Austrian style of education currently presented in America. Which is why in my opinion and experience, even average homeschooling generally produces better results that excellent public schooling.
I hate to say it, but I find myself upvoting a lot of the same people. I keep getting those "share some love" messages.

Public education does work, and home schooling is not always possible nor affordable. However, homeschooling is not something that should be looked down upon: except for this ridiculous creationists. Aside from them, home-schooled children are getting a good, and sometimes better, education.

I think you'll like this relevant quote, Scarmig. I'm trying to find the author.

"If we can't trust someone to govern himself, how can we trust him to govern others?"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2010, 11:54 AM
 
2,893 posts, read 5,166,659 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post

"If we can't trust someone to govern himself, how can we trust him to govern others?"
Yes, I like that quote.

Another one that hits even closer for me is:

"Other people are not my property."

I know some people who homeschool and are creationists. Their kids are better educated than their public school peers, not because they have been taught different facts, theories, or beliefs, but because they are taught to think, analyze, and ask questions. Once they have those skills, any facts or beliefs that are taught may be subject to those critical thinking skills, and may be revised. There is a whole bunch of fantasy that taught to kids from whatever system they are educated in. Cultural fantasy, political fantasy, religious fantasy, yet as long as they are taught to think critically, they often overcome or outgrow those fantasies, at least to a point where they can function well for themselves.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2010, 11:59 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,415,357 times
Reputation: 47455
home schooling is 3rd rate education. unfortunately K12 has become the bad side of detroit with a bunch of hog tied smart teachers who are not allowed to teach or discipline. its like hiring great police but requiring them to not carry weapons and put them walking a beat, then when they are shot and stabbed and fail to protect the public, blame them for poor job performance.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2010, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,037 posts, read 30,676,322 times
Reputation: 12213
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
Yes, I like that quote.

Another one that hits even closer for me is:

"Other people are not my property."

I know some people who homeschool and are creationists. Their kids are better educated than their public school peers, not because they have been taught different facts, theories, or beliefs, but because they are taught to think, analyze, and ask questions. Once they have those skills, any facts or beliefs that are taught may be subject to those critical thinking skills, and may be revised. There is a whole bunch of fantasy that taught to kids from whatever system they are educated in. Cultural fantasy, political fantasy, religious fantasy, yet as long as they are taught to think critically, they often overcome or outgrow those fantasies, at least to a point where they can function well for themselves.
I know little about the public school system in the US, but here in Canada the most important thing taught in public schools is critical thinking. I thought the same criteria applied in your country.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top