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I think for American Christians our persecution comes down to verbal attacks on our faith, which is still persecution.
If we're going to define persecution as being attacked verbally, then each and every one of us is persecuted for one thing or another. Such a definition is so broad as to be rendered meaningless.
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Originally Posted by MontanaGuy
I think the people who probably suffer the most religious persecution in the US would be the Jews (mainly from white supremacists and nut cases) and some of the minority religions. Again, the word persecution is probably too strong in most cases because it conjures up images of people being thrown in jail, beaten up and seriously mistreated. I know there's a backlash against people who look Middle Eastern or are muslims largely because of the 9/11 attacks. There was even a man in this area who was shot and killed just because he looked like an Arab but he was actually from India.
I would agree with what deerislesmile said regarding the changes that Christians see in society and might regard as insulting. It's true that the traditions of past generations are changing and people are more accepting of secular values than they are of religious values but that really doesn't qualify as persecution, it's just a shift in the direction that society is going.
But do you consider that a good thing - that we move toward being a more secular society?
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Originally Posted by Hoosier_guy
I think to state Christianity as coddled is quite ridiculous. I really don't see how anyone can view this religion as "coddled". Christians have access to free speech just as other religions. Christians take the opportunity to share their faith. I don't understand how one believes Christians are coddled.
In answer to persecution I will say that Amercian Christians have it too good. We do not experience persecution the way the church does in Asia or other parts of the world. Outside of the U.S. Christians are dying for their faith. People who are converting to Christianity from the Muslim faith are being killed for doing so.
Taking a manger out of the town square as JerZ mentioned? No, that's not persecution when we look at the Christian church outside the U.S. I believe what is happening in the U.S. is a lack of tolerance towards the Christian church and other faiths as well. I do however believe that non-Christian faiths are revered more and thought of better. I get the impression that people would rather befriend a Muslim than a Christian. Why? Not sure at this moment.
Which is interesting, considering Muslim beliefs are just as strict, if not more so, than Christian beliefs.
If we're going to define persecution as being attacked verbally, then each and every one of us is persecuted for one thing or another. Such a definition is so broad as to be rendered meaningless.
No it is not meaningless. How would the gay community like it if I started bashing them for their lifestyle? They'd be up in arms and wouldn't like it. What if I started calling Jews horrible names and telling them the Holocaust is a figment of their imagination and they're just dillusional? Probably wouldn't go over too well.
"Sticks and stone will break my bones, but names will never hurt me," is one of the all time untrue statements in history. Do you remember being on the playground in elementary school and kids calling you names? Teasing you? I sure do and somedays I remember it and it still hurts 30 some odd years later. Words spoken can be a curse and a blessing. If you're calling people names or speaking out against their beliefs that is a form of persecution. It is harrassment.
Tell me something super personal about your life and I'll come up with something nasty and spiteful to say and then you tell me if that is not persecuting you.
No it is not meaningless. How would the gay community like it if I started bashing them for their lifestyle? They'd be up in arms and wouldn't like it. What if I started calling Jews horrible names and telling them the Holocaust is a figment of their imagination and they're just dillusional? Probably wouldn't go over too well.
There's a difference here, though. If millions of Christians had been killed by Hitler for being Christian, that might go a little farther than the sticks and stones we're seeing today. As far as gays, again, it goes a lot farther than name-calling. There have been many, many, many hate crimes directly against gays all throughout history, I daresay many more than crimes directly against Christians, especially in recent history. Christianity got off to a very painful start with many Christian deaths in the two centuries; but two centuries worth of this type of persecution is very, very small as compared to the unbelievable mass torture and genocide for thirteen centuries against Jews, and many many centuries of hatred, torture and ousting of gays from society...from the military...from jobs...etc.
Now as far as just calling a name, yes, if I were to call a gay a name, that person would certainly be upset. And of course if I called a Christian a name, he would be upset. I still don't see how just that one thing--calling a name--is *persecution*. It is hurtful, but the act of simply calling a name does not oppress or hold one down. It's when you take away jobs because of it, refuse marital rights because of it, kill because of it, that it becomes a true persecution...in my opinion only. I know that by definition, it would still be considered persecution, but I hardly think it compares to true persecution we've seen of the groups you've mentioned.
If people are worried about Christian persecution in the U.S. (the thread title specifies the U.S.) based on, say, name-calling, then fine, and that's legitimate. But to compare persecution of Christians in the U.S. to these other groups is comparing apples to grenades. It's not really an accurate comparison. All by itself, yes, the idea of Christians being called names is wrong.
But do you consider that a good thing - that we move toward being a more secular society?
As you know I'm an atheist so for myself I'd prefer to live in a society that's neutral towards religion but I have mixed feelings about how to answer your question. I really don't want people who are religious to ever be persecuted because of what they believe. I don't believe in God but I believe in freedom of thought and if people believe in a particular religion they have every right to practice their faith and live by it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though I don't want religion to be forced on me I also don't feel that people who believe as I do have the right to bulldoze over the beliefs of religious people and try to make them to conform to our way of thinking. Either extreme is bad. I would like society to allow all of us to follow our beliefs and fortunately it does.
Then there's the pastor who taught from scripture during a church service, and his teaching was recorded and reported and he ended up being charged with a hate crime, and was thrown into prison. Would you define this as persecution?
This is a scary development and the implications are far reaching. I haven't heard, for example, that any of the imams teaching death to the infidels in this country have been even talked to, never mind charged. "Infidel", by the way, includes all you atheists, too.
It's a real threat to religious freedom if we can't teach the flock what scripture says about any given topic, whether those on the outside agree with it or not.
Last edited by swbtoo; 06-03-2007 at 04:25 PM..
Reason: sp, line
There's a difference here, though. If millions of Christians had been killed by Hitler for being Christian, that might go a little farther than the sticks and stones we're seeing today. As far as gays, again, it goes a lot farther than name-calling. There have been many, many, many hate crimes directly against gays all throughout history, I daresay many more than crimes directly against Christians, especially in recent history. Christianity got off to a very painful start with many Christian deaths in the two centuries; but two centuries worth of this type of persecution is very, very small as compared to the unbelievable mass torture and genocide for thirteen centuries against Jews, and many many centuries of hatred, torture and ousting of gays from society...from the military...from jobs...etc.
Now as far as just calling a name, yes, if I were to call a gay a name, that person would certainly be upset. And of course if I called a Christian a name, he would be upset. I still don't see how just that one thing--calling a name--is *persecution*. It is hurtful, but the act of simply calling a name does not oppress or hold one down. It's when you take away jobs because of it, refuse marital rights because of it, kill because of it, that it becomes a true persecution...in my opinion only. I know that by definition, it would still be considered persecution, but I hardly think it compares to true persecution we've seen of the groups you've mentioned.
I guess we can leave it at saying it's subjective. What I view as persecution, you or others may not view and vice versa. And I'm not saying one is worse than the other such as millions of Jewish people dying at the hand of Hitler. I was generalizing persecution by bringing those points to light.
Then there's the pastor who taught from scripture during a church service, and his teaching was recorded and reported and he ended up being charged with a hate crime, and was thrown into prison.
Then there's the pastor who taught from scripture during a church service, and his teaching was recorded and reported and he ended up being charged with a hate crime, and was thrown into prison.
I'm curious about the details of this situation. If someone was put in prison for a hate crime I would think there's got to be something to it. Is this in the US?
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