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Old 03-16-2010, 10:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Here is the funny thing about the supposed monopoly on morality that Christians falsely assume. Go to any society on the planet and you will find proscriptions against murder, bearing false witness, honoring one's parents and elders, and outside of those few societies which don't recognize the concept of private property you will find similar proscription against adultery and theft, all without the benefit of ever reading or hearing about the Moses, the 10 Commandments, the Bible or Heaven and Hell. Now if you don't find that remarkable, I don't know what does.
Actually . . . that is what speaks to the existence of an absolute code built-in to human life. All the different manifestations and interpretations are evidence of our evolution of understanding what that code is. The fact that we have yet to get it completely right has nothing to do with whether or not one exists. It is the existence of God and a purpose for human life that legitimizes the concept of a non-arbitrary morality and validates our search for the right one.
Quote:
There is no moral argument for the existence of god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Which of course brings up the question, if god's laws are some immutable, why the wholesale abandonment of Mosaic laws by Christians? Because Paul decided that adherence to those laws were inconvenient for recruiting non-Jewish converts?

Ya got to love them moral absolutes.
Without moral absolutes the concept itself is arbitrary and absurd. The need for moral absolutes IS the moral argument for the existence of God. Morality is meaningless without a God and purpose for human life establishing an absolute standard . . . whether or not we have actually determined what it is. Accidents have no absolute anything . . . they are accidents!
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:56 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 2,951,912 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
We also understand that many animals, humans included, have the capacity to... dare I say, love other members of their species? That care and compassion is just as much a part of our genetic make up as any other emotion?

Elephants Show Compassion and Have an Awareness about Death - Elephants assisted the dying matriarch elephant, Eleanor - Softpedia

Bonobo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A lot of mammals show this behavior. It is about the survival of the species as a whole. It would be a little absurd to say animals can't reason, considering their behavior is not just conditioning. There is more to behavior than that.
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Old 03-17-2010, 12:08 AM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,062,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Actually . . . that is what speaks to the existence of an absolute code built-in to human life.
There are no moral absolutes, never have been.
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Old 03-17-2010, 12:10 AM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,062,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
If that's the case, evolution has backfired
How has evolution backfired?

Oh, never mind.
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Old 03-17-2010, 12:16 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,427,088 times
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yes skilled arguments are presented as to the many incidents that take place in K12 that they are not rare and perhaps unfortunate but to be expected due to extenuating circumstances.
for example unreported gang rape of a teacher in a stair well.
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:05 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
The city council, the state legislature, the Congress? I suppose in an absolute monarchy there would be one "law giver" but in a democracy the law is arrived at collectively, thus the absence of a "law giver".
Thank you for helping to make my point. City councils, State legislatures, Congress, monarchs are all subject to change.

If slavery were to once again become legal under the established law of the land, would that make it right?

Is immorality wrong because it's wrong or, is immorality wrong because the atheist says it's wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
So you claim.
My claim of God's existence really has nothing to do with the question of the basis for a moral code. In Christianity the Christian church (which does in fact exist) holds to the existence of God - a transcendent and eternal being having power and authority to establish laws that anchor a framework for morality.

Again, what is or would be the atheists equivalent? It's perfectly OK for you to be honest here and admit that there is none.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Well that of course begs the question as to why Christian morality is ever changing, relative, and anything but absolute?
...and what has been "ever changing" about the Ten Commandments, Sermon on the Mount and Golden Rule?

How would man's inability to follow the law negate the law?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Here is the funny thing about the supposed monopoly on morality that Christians falsely assume.
Where have I expressed a "monopoly on morality?" In Christianity the existence of a transcendent law is both logical and sensible. I've been trying to get you to explain how any moral code can make sense in the absence of a transcendent eternal being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Go to any society on the planet and you will find proscriptions against murder, bearing false witness, honoring one's parents and elders, and outside of those few societies which don't recognize the concept of private property you will find similar proscription against adultery and theft, all without the benefit of ever reading or hearing about the Moses, the 10 Commandments, the Bible or Heaven and Hell. Now if you don't find that remarkable, I don't know what does.
Yes, it is remarkable. It almost seems as if a transcendent eternal being has inscribed them on the hearts of all mankind. In fact, there is a book that I read from time to time that states as much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Taoism, Confucian thought, animist of all stripes and colors live by a set of basic core moral codes that any human would immediately recognize. That being the case, then the claim of some God given Christian morality loses its exclusivity and with it, the claim of moral superiority.
You seem to be all wrapped around the axle with this "moral superiority" thing.

Go back to page one - all I did was ask a simple question.

Why not lay off the rhetorical tap dance and just provide an open and honest answer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Just like all of rest of humanity, Christians included, who have never adhered to an absolute code of morality but one that has constantly been shaped and revised ever since we first dragged our sorry buts out of African plains and will continue to be revised and reshaped long into the future.
Again, how does failure to adhere to an absolute code negate the absolute code?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
There is no moral argument for the existence of god.
Wow. That is really deep.

Unfortunately, if I were to give this the response it deserves the so called quote "moderators" unquote, would no doubt delete me.
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:35 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,570,594 times
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First, as a side, there is no moral absolutism even in Christianity. Christian morality is relative to the person being judged. For example, is it wrong to punish the son for the sins of the father? Yes, if you are human, no if you are God. Different set of rules apply, relative to the context. So it's an error to believe Christian morality is absolute and not relative.

Second, a "purpose in life" can arbitrarily be given to you by God, (for example "worship god") or you can give one to yourself, (for example, "maximize human happiness"). Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on life purposes. It's only a question of who gives it to you. Either way,it's up to you to decide what purpose to adopt.
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:42 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,570,594 times
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As a Christian, you believe that, in order to be a "good person" you have to do what is God tells you is good.

As an atheist, I believe that, in order to be a "good person" I have to do what my brain tells me is good.

We're both free to be good people or bad people. But if you are a Christian, God tells what is good and what isn't. For me, rational thought from my brain tells me what is good and what isnt.
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,567,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
How has evolution backfired?

Oh, never mind.
Are we okay?
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Old 03-17-2010, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,442,916 times
Reputation: 258
I'm just wrong today. And a person calls by telephone and makes no response. I have to live with the peace of Christ to give me the innate ideal goodness back again for faith.

I believe that Good faith is some form of moral and it offers the intuition for returning to my understanding for what God designed as a goal and perhaps calling. Calling for a Christian does conflict with the goal: one is unity of practice and theory; the other is cunning and the wit realizing the God's Goal in the first place.
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