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Old 04-02-2010, 06:51 AM
 
5,463 posts, read 5,785,375 times
Reputation: 1803

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
KC,
I'm glad you posted that. It let me know where my explanation is deficient.

I think the problem here is that it's seems you define faith as: Belief in things that are disputed by "evidence" and "facts". And I see faith as the belief you have in things because you give credence to the facts or whatever else (like perception or intuition) you base the belief on.
OK, so you say that is just accepting that a large amount of evidence is sufficient proof of a claim. So where's the large amount of evidence backing up your religious faith?

Your definition here is a bit nonstandard, but I'll go with it for now and see where it leads. No backtracking and saying "well, there's no real evidence but I believe in my religion on faith" - that makes no sense in the context of the definition you've given here, which requires someone to have a basis of facts to have faith in.

I'm guessing you'll find it impossible to actually stick to your definition and still use the term faith in a religious context. Faith as "not everything is 100% certain" is totally different that faith as in "religious faith".
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Old 04-02-2010, 06:58 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,883 posts, read 9,662,328 times
Reputation: 2400
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm...mabeynot View Post
I just stated what happened, and how it happened.

It could have been a coincidence.
It could have been anything...all I know is that the mountain moved.
Well it didn't actually move did it...it WAS moved. There is a difference. It's rather like putting a bottle of beer on the table and every day for week, willing it to become empty. Then, after a week, you drink the contents and saying 'Damn!! The bottles actually did become empty'!!!

C'mon on dude. You can't be serious???
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:59 PM
 
6,637 posts, read 3,863,211 times
Reputation: 654
Default Faith in "The Creator"

KC,
You have assigned the word "religion" to me. I don't use that word beyond it's definition as, a "set of beliefs" concerning the cause, condition, and purpose of the universe. The universe has demonstrated it's power to create..."science" has "proven" that, when you "test" the order and properties of it...to come up with your "scientific discoveries". So I see the universe itself as the creative agent of the "force" that instigated it. What scientists are "studying" and "researching" is, in essence, the creative arm of the force you deny. Some people (include me in this group) call that force "God". You call it "science", or "nature", or whatever... but it's really the creative entity you are studying. THAT is my faith..."religion" if you please. I'm not so good at explaining this. MysticPhD was awesome at putting this into words in the "Atheism made easy" thread. He is without peer on this board to explain his position...and do it in a way that is rational, logical, reasonable, and above all, makes perfect sense. He should be published...maybe he is. I'd buy his book(s) if there are any. Read his posts throughout that thread and you will understand what I mean. It's not even really "deep" thinking...the universe has the "proven" power to create, which makes it "the creator". I call it "God"...You are free to call it whatever you want, but it's disingenuous to fail to give it it's "props" as "the creator" just to avoid having to admit there IS a creator. When you study and test any part of the universe...you are studying and testing "God". Some of you guys haven't gotten "hip" to that...hopefully you will.

I go beyond MysticPhD and believe we have been given more direct "signs" of the "creative force" than just the universe we behold...but that's my own thing. His base explanation states the case, though...in what I believe to be irrefutable terms. That's my "evidence of God"...when you look at the universe (the creative entity of everything)...you are looking at "Creator God". Many of the greatest minds ever realized this. That's why so many people "believe"...we recognize there is a "God", because we come from that "God"...so it's "in us" to know it. We are our own proof of it...only 1 out of 10 in the world delude themselves otherwise.

All the best.
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:13 PM
 
Location: alabama
200 posts, read 258,758 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Well it didn't actually move did it...it WAS moved. There is a difference. It's rather like putting a bottle of beer on the table and every day for week, willing it to become empty. Then, after a week, you drink the contents and saying 'Damn!! The bottles actually did become empty'!!!

C'mon on dude. You can't be serious???
I knew I would catch trouble for that one before I posted it.

Yes it was moved. The mountain moved.

Faith is someting that can be tested. The only problem is...you have to believe it first.

It also works in the negative. Your deepest fears can come true simply because you believe they will. I mean who wins at sports without thinking they can win? How many times has a team lost because they thought they couldn't win? Why is the world always stressing a positive mental attitude?

Because it works.
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,883 posts, read 9,662,328 times
Reputation: 2400
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm...mabeynot View Post

Faith is someting that can be tested. The only problem is...you have to believe it first.
Ah right! In order for something to be true you first have to convince yourself it is true.
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Old 04-02-2010, 06:09 PM
 
Location: alabama
200 posts, read 258,758 times
Reputation: 55
Not exactly...You have to convince yourself it can be done, and it will be done.

It can be likened to visualization..you have to see it first.

You cannot make a brick unless you first picture the brick.
You can't build a house (a decent one anyway) unless you first "see" the house.

The house and the brick exist in thought first.
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Old 04-02-2010, 10:12 PM
 
6,637 posts, read 3,863,211 times
Reputation: 654
Default Gotta have FAITH in sumthin'

This site has some excellent writers on it. Actually, splendid philosophers that really have something of substance to say. I just read Jremy, post #575, on the "Atheism made easy" thread...another guy that needs to find a publisher.

Two thumbs up to his premise that the FAITH theists have in their "higher power" in no way puts them in a diminished position to the atheists. The way I see it is at least the theists have SOMETHING to point to as the support for our belief system...while the atheists base their FAITH in their fallible "data" on what? They won't answer that...but it has to be something...so what is it? I'm still trying to figure that out. I guess it's their secret. But as I've said over, and over...It ALL comes down to FAITH.

All the best to all.
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Old 04-03-2010, 01:00 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,883 posts, read 9,662,328 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
But as I've said over, and over...It ALL comes down to FAITH.
In reality, faith is nothing more than refusing to recognize logic and evidence when it tells you something you'd rather not believe. It is simply the practice of ignoring the supportable in favour of a desired belief. It's a way of lying to yourself when the evidence refuses to say what you want it to say. Faith is never a good thing. It is the psychological mechanism which allows us to deny reality and accept, in its place, a desirable fantasy. Faith equals denial of reality and it's never a good thing. It should always be seen as a negative because that's exactly what faith is.
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Old 04-03-2010, 02:08 AM
 
6,637 posts, read 3,863,211 times
Reputation: 654
Default Have FAITH those pesky "facts" aren't WROOOONG.

After a load of posts on my view as to what "FAITH" is, you have got to be replying that way just to pull my chain. But that's cool Raif'...I kinda had it comin'.

NOTHING is 100% certain. NOTHING. Not your so-called "facts", or evidence...not intuition or perception, no matter how keen...obviously speculation and conjecture aren't certain. Not a thing is "for sure". But everyone already knows that.
Faith is the trust you have that you've come to an accurate conclusion...regardless of how you came to that conclusion. It has nothing to do with, lying to yourself, denying reality, ignoring the supportable, refusing to recognize logic, or any other "poke in the ribs" statement (let's seeee, yup, you got all the major ones in there...good job!) you want to put up. But has everything to do with the certain belief that you have the right answer. In a world where nothing is absolute...you always need a dose of faith. It's the only "logical" way to see it.
That's my position and I'm stickin' to it.
All the best.
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Old 04-03-2010, 02:23 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,038 posts, read 30,691,572 times
Reputation: 12214
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
After a load of posts on my view as to what "FAITH" is, you have got to be replying that way just to pull my chain. But that's cool Raif'...I kinda had it comin'.

NOTHING is 100% certain. NOTHING. Not your so-called "facts", or evidence...not intuition or perception, no matter how keen...obviously speculation and conjecture aren't certain. Not a thing is "for sure". But everyone already knows that.
Faith is the trust you have that you've come to an accurate conclusion...regardless of how you came to that conclusion. It has nothing to do with, lying to yourself, denying reality, ignoring the supportable, refusing to recognize logic, or any other "poke in the ribs" statement (let's seeee, yup, you got all the major ones in there...good job!) you want to put up. But has everything to do with the certain belief that you have the right answer. In a world where nothing is absolute...you always need a dose of faith. It's the only "logical" way to see it.
That's my position and I'm stickin' to it.
All the best.
Nothing is certain? Now that is just plain silly...Something cannot come from nothing....I'm certain.....
I am male....I'm certain...I have feet....I'm certain....You are using a keyboard....I'm certain....Need more? There are thousands of things I'm certain of, and none require faith.

Certainty..... Something that is clearly established or assured:

Faith....Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Faith..... Christianity, The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
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