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Old 04-01-2010, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,072 posts, read 4,974,781 times
Reputation: 2479

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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Rifleman,
This thread is about if the universe came to be from nothing...which lends itself to a discussion about a "Creator". Arguing that Einstein didn't state belief in a "personal" God does not dismiss the "fact" that he was a proponent of a "God Force" acting upon the universe. Why bring up the "no personal God for Einstein" argument? While he didn't endorse a personal God he validated Jesus (I am the son of God) Christ...so, he did go beyond just "creation God". But that's not what matters about what Einstein thought, relative to the thread. I know it is a thorn in the atheists side that arguably the greatest mind to ever live (in the field probably most directly relative to the question) said, "Yes", to the question of the existence of a God that compelled the universe.
The thread topic is actually about how neither atheism nor science say the universe came from nothing, yet creationists keep claiming they do say the universe came from nothing. It also isn't a thorn in an atheist's side that Einstein believed in a divinity. All it means is that Einstein had his own personal beliefs.
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Old 04-01-2010, 12:50 PM
 
37,644 posts, read 25,331,652 times
Reputation: 5864
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
Occam's Razor, mostly.
Ockham's razor is a principle created by a religious Franciscan friar that has repeatedly been shown NOT to be true . . . especially as we learn more and more about reality through science. There is nothing scientific about it.
Quote:
Not assuming stuff which isn't necessary is one of the central ideas of science.
And yet you do it all the time with your assumption that there is no intelligence behind the clearly intelligent (directed) processes and design (not chaotic) features of reality that are used by science to intelligently explain what we can discern.
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Your concept of god is one of those unnecessary things which are left out of scientific models. God doesn't explain or predict anything, so it's worthless to what science is doing.
Concepts of God are of human origin and are irrelevant. The existence of God is not worthless, however, since it is central to the very things you are investigating scientifically. God needn't explain or predict anything about the processes we discover . . . only the reason they exist and are intelligible (able to be investigated intelligently . . . for those in Rio Linda) . . . which science provides no alternative for.
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Based on what you've written, I can see you don't understand how science works. You think it assumes everything is true and has to conclusively disprove ideas before coming to conclusions. In fact, the opposite is true - concepts need evidence before they're considered. Your god doesn't meet even that minimum standard.
::Sigh:: I practiced social science research for 30+ years and taught advanced graduate research methods for most of that time. Are ad hominems your only resort when confronted with your own lack of understanding?
Quote:
If that bothers you, you need to come up with a reason for scientists to care. Your best evidence so far - that you saw it in a mystical vision while depriving your brain of oxygen - isn't what one would call objective data.
It is impossible to find evidence for or indications of that which you actively deny even exists . . . all while discovering more and more of the details about it!!
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Old 04-01-2010, 02:37 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,645,445 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is impossible to find evidence for or indications of that which you actively deny even exists . . . all while discovering more and more of the details about it!!
Not accepting a claim, doesn't shift the burden of evidence off the person who is making the claim.
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Old 04-01-2010, 02:57 PM
 
37,644 posts, read 25,331,652 times
Reputation: 5864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
Not accepting a claim, doesn't shift the burden of evidence off the person who is making the claim.
There is no claim and no burden of evidence required . . . since you make none and have none either for that which you are investigating so diligently with your science.
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Old 04-01-2010, 03:45 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,645,445 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There is no claim and no burden of evidence required . . . since you make none and have none either for that which you are investigating so diligently with your science.
EXACTLY!!!! Science deals with phenomenon in reality, can you point to a phenomenon in reality that would indicate a magical god?
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Old 04-01-2010, 03:55 PM
 
37,644 posts, read 25,331,652 times
Reputation: 5864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
EXACTLY!!!! Science deals with phenomenon in reality, can you point to a phenomenon in reality that would indicate a magical god?
The magical is your term. Can you point to a phenomenon in reality that doesn't indicate a God? How would you know that . . . scientifically?
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Old 04-01-2010, 04:02 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,645,445 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The magical is your term. Can you point to a phenomenon in reality that doesn't indicate a God? How would you know that . . . scientifically?
lol, when do we prove negatives.. if you taught the scientific method for "15" years, how come you don't know this?

Edit: I ask you again - Science deals with phenomenon in reality, can you point to a phenomenon in reality that would indicate a magical god? If you can not, then I shall continue standing here saying "I reject you claims of a magical god".

Last edited by Gplex; 04-01-2010 at 04:54 PM..
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Old 04-01-2010, 04:08 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,645,445 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
All the evidence points toward evolution by natural selection.
Don't you guys ever tire of using this non-explanation of "natural" as if it is a scientific explanation? How is it any more scientific than evolution by designed selection? You haven't a clue what or why "natural" or "nature" actually is . . . since it "Just is" . . . no different than God "just is" . . . except for the name.
Because maybe if you actually read why he typed ("natural selection") you would recognize that the the word "natural" is only part of the name of an explanation of how genes can have a higher chance of reproducing due to environmental pressures.

No. That's where you are wrong. With natural selection we can observe, test, and make predictions based on accumulative information and theories.
"God" has none of these attributes. "God done it" IS NOT AN EXPLANATION!!!!

Edit: wikipedia puts this perfectly, Natural selection is the process by which those heritable traits that make it more likely for an organism to survive and successfully reproduce become more common in a population over successive generations. It is a key mechanism of evolution.
I'm interested in what your reply would be to this...
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Old 04-01-2010, 04:15 PM
 
6,643 posts, read 3,874,584 times
Reputation: 656
Rifleman--If I came across as insulting or inferring that all atheists are evil because they don't think they have to "answer" to some afterlife judgement...I apologize. I didn't mean to do that...nor do I believe that in any way. Good and bad on both sides. The RC molesters and those that covered for them...HORRIBLE... hope they get all they have coming. RC missionaries...wonderful and sweet, give me more of them. Same examples with nonbelievers. The evil and cruel ones...thumbs down. The good and decent ones...thumbs up.

Personally, I haven't pinpointed any particular "God". I just believe the creation of this whole universe was at least "kicked off" (then left to develop on it's own from there) by some force. Many have a name for that "force". Some just call it the "higher power". Some go so far as to believe it/he/she watches and knows everything...keeps an account...then judges by a virtually impossible set of "rules"...that's the part that I'm saying is contradictory to the "warmth and comfort".

"Majority Rule", isn't about "sheeple" or "Crusade & Spanish Inquisition type tactics...but the way any democratic society (including all U.S. governments) work. We have "In God we Trust" written on our currency. You think that is a false statement...but because the *majority* believe that, it stands. When/if the majority no longer does, it will be voted out. In a free democratic society, the minority aren't "sheeple"...just the "minority", in a "majority rules" system. Neither are the majority "sheeple", just people who hold the most common mindset.

Again, I can't stress enough...no insult or negative assumption about people with an atheist viewpoint. You are fully entitled to think the way you do, and there are no prejudgments as to your character. MOF I have FAITH...even though I've never met you...that you are a decent person.

All the best.
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Old 04-01-2010, 04:27 PM
 
433 posts, read 515,831 times
Reputation: 91
How the universe is belongs to science study; religion is a group of people praying sitting around doing nothing.

Those two things are very different. Religion should stay in church and mosque and say nothing about a science matter.

What about moral issues? Those are social science matters. Religion shouldn't have anything to say on those matters either.

So, stay in church, mosque... Don't come out.
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