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Old 03-19-2010, 10:03 PM
 
702 posts, read 813,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
No we do not agree on that. Science IS the measure of all things....Everything outside of the physical can only be measured (judged) subjectively, and that judgment will vary depending of who is doing the judging.....That is no measurement at all.
The very idea "Science is the measure of all things" falls outside the physical world because it is a concept. According to your reasoning here, it can only be measured subjectively.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,043 posts, read 30,779,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
The very idea "Science is the measure of all things" falls outside the physical world because it is a concept. According to your reasoning here, it can only be measured subjectively.
Me thinks you are nothing more than a logic chopper....

Regardless of your word munching, the existence of god is nothing more than an assumption....Do you at least admit that? What ever can or cannot be tested (measured) by science has nothing to do with the OP.
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Old 03-20-2010, 02:03 AM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,386,352 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
No, nothing like it. They cannot all be right.
Then how can you trust "revelation" to tell you what's right, if it confirms all beliefs that can't all be right?

Quote:
Because I can touch it and see it. That's what I mean by objective. It exists outside of me like any other physical object.
That you know of through observation.

Quote:
Yes, but you go further than that. You also believe that what is not testable and observable must be dismissed as false, simply because science cannot ascertain it--unless I've completely misunderstood you.
You have misunderstood me, yes. I am not making an assertion that "God" is false, only that "revelation" is not a valid source of information about what is true or false.

Any random religion could be right, but it would have to be through pure random chance if revelation is all they're using to "seek truth". After all, which revelations you believe or disbelieve are pure random chance; i.e. if you were born in an Arabic country your book would be the koran.

Quote:
Whether you are forced to or not is irrelevant does not change the fact that you have an unprovable foundation. Now if science is provable, then by all means share with me how you prove it to be true. If you say something to this effect: "Science proves itself because it has led to correct findings," that would be circular because you would be proving something using itself.
Don't you understand the difference between "correct" and "consistent"?

Quote:
As I've said before, I agree. Science has its place in this world and has the right to make judgments about physical things. I'm not attacking science.
Of course, you can't empirically study something that has no observable aspect to study. But unless it has some observable aspect, it can't be studied (there is no other link to the world but observation).

The bible is an observable aspect of your claims, and can be scientifically studied.

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When it comes to the physical world, I agree. Physical things must be known physically.
Such as the bible.

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Therefore, we must trust our senses to discern the world around us. We must start with our senses. We don't question them, so in that sense our presupposition is, "That which can be known about the physical world must be learned through observation." Even though we have no choice, it is still a foundation upon which we build our conclusions, a foundation we don't question.
Unless we're bored.

Quote:
So, then, there are some truths that fall outside the jurisdiction of science. When lawmakers say that it is wrong to commit murder, they are also saying, "It's true that murder is wrong."
"Murder is wrong" has a 'silent' implication of "I/we all feel, or should feel, that murder is wrong." Morals are not "true" or "false" absolutely, they are subjective to the individual. However, there is an objective reality that our beliefs can be compared to (in theory, not by us) in order to deem our beliefs "true" or "false". Revelation, because it gives us mutually exclusive results to different people, cannot be a link to that objective, absolute reality we strive to know.
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