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Old 03-17-2010, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,043 posts, read 30,783,798 times
Reputation: 12223

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Interesting thread...It is a good example of objective thinking vs wishful thinking. I particularly enjoy the way theists have defected the thread from it's original intent and made it a discussion about the shortcomings of science.

The topic is "the assumption of God". Since no god has ever offered any proof of his existence, then I have to agree with the OP...... Jremy says that creation and the bible are objective.
Objective
1. Of or having to do with a material object.
2. Having actual existence or reality.
3. a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices:
b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually:

I disagree because in that case I suppose every creation story would have to be objective...There is one that says the first humans came from a large clam.

Regarding the bible, the book itself is objective, but the stories and revelations within are not.
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Old 03-17-2010, 12:35 PM
 
702 posts, read 813,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Interesting thread...It is a good example of objective thinking vs wishful thinking. I particularly enjoy the way theists have defected the thread from it's original intent and made it a discussion about the shortcomings of science.
I wouldn't call it a defection. Call it rather a balancing of the perspective. The OP presented the issue in a one-sided manner, thus:

"Why is it necessary to assume there is a God?

Look, God-worshipers don't really know there is a God or not -- it's a totally faith-based act to believe: they bang their heads on the ground praying, pay for their religion, ready themselves for anything their religion calls for ... but, no one really sees nor hears from God. Worse, despite all the religious acts, there's no miracles, just faith."


Thus, the OP starts with the conclusion that believers in God are assuming that God exists and have totally faith-based beliefs. The implication, of course, is that atheists do not have beliefs that are based on assumptions but are 100% neutral. That's perhaps the greatest myth out there. The reality is that science is based on assumptions just as much as religion is. That doesn't mean it lacks value or never arrives at truth. It just means that its moorings are ultimately as subjective as the theist's.

Quote:
The topic is "the assumption of God". Since no god has ever offered any proof of his existence, then I have to agree with the OP......
You will indeed believe what you want to believe based on grounds you have assumed to be reliable.

Quote:
Jremy says that creation and the bible are objective.
Objective
1. Of or having to do with a material object.
2. Having actual existence or reality.
3. a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices:
b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually:

I disagree because in that case I suppose every creation story would have to be objective...There is one that says the first humans came from a large clam.

Regarding the bible, the book itself is objective, but the stories and revelations within are not.
They are objective in that they are textual. Creation itself is objective. They stand outside subjective experience and do not depend on subjectivism to exist. Whether one agrees with them or not does not nullify their existence.
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Old 03-17-2010, 01:05 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,386,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Faith sees the evidence and wants to acknowledge it.
If there was evidence you wouldn't need faith. Faith is your vehicle for belief when evidence is unavailable.
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Old 03-17-2010, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,043 posts, read 30,783,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
I wouldn't call it a defection. Call it rather a balancing of the perspective. The OP presented the issue in a one-sided manner, thus:
Actually I meant to type "deflection"....You know, what some do when they cannot reasonably address the topic at hand...

Quote:
"Why is it necessary to assume there is a God?

Look, God-worshipers don't really know there is a God or not -- it's a totally faith-based act to believe: they bang their heads on the ground praying, pay for their religion, ready themselves for anything their religion calls for ... but, no one really sees nor hears from God. Worse, despite all the religious acts, there's no miracles, just faith."
Quote:
Thus, the OP starts with the conclusion that believers in God are assuming that God exists and have totally faith-based beliefs. The implication, of course, is that atheists do not have beliefs that are based on assumptions but are 100% neutral. That's perhaps the greatest myth out there. The reality is that science is based on assumptions just as much as religion is. That doesn't mean it lacks value or never arrives at truth. It just means that its moorings are ultimately as subjective as the theist's.
The OP make no mention of science or what atheists do or do not believe (deflection)
Quote:
You will indeed believe what you want to believe based on grounds you have assumed to be reliable.
No, I believe what has proven reliable....No assumption required.

Quote:
They are objective in that they are textual.
Agreed, but that is the only way the bible is objective...The same way the Harry Potter books are objective...The fact that the books exist....The contents are at best assumptions.

Quote:
Creation itself is objective. They stand outside subjective experience and do not depend on subjectivism to exist. Whether one agrees with them or not does not nullify their existence.
If you mean creation itself is objective, because of the fact that the universe actually exists, I agree, but the hundreds of creation stories are certainly not objective.

In the end the OP is correct.

Quote:
God-worshipers don't really know there is a God or not -- it's a totally faith-based act to believe:
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Old 03-17-2010, 01:35 PM
 
702 posts, read 813,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
If there was evidence you wouldn't need faith. Faith is your vehicle for belief when evidence is unavailable.
Fair enough. I will rephrase: "Faith sees the revelation and wants to acknowledge it."
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Old 03-17-2010, 01:44 PM
 
702 posts, read 813,787 times
Reputation: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Actually I meant to type "deflection"....You know, what some do when they cannot reasonably address the topic at hand...
I know exactly what you mean.

Quote:
Quote:
You will indeed believe what you want to believe based on grounds you have assumed to be reliable.
No, I believe what has proven reliable....No assumption required.
Really? What are the grounds upon which you base your conclusions?

Quote:
In the end the OP is correct.
It will take a whole lot to show that. Science is ultimately based on assumptions, just as much as religion. That is why the OP is horribly inaccurate and blatantly one-sided. I'm not talking about the findings of science but the means whereby it arrives at those findings. There are two options:
  1. The means (presumably empiricism) are assumed to be true and, therefore, not questioned, or
  2. The means are provable by appealing to something else, in which case the thing appealed to is the higher authority. This new authority then needs to be proven. If not, it is the unquestionable authority.
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Old 03-17-2010, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,043 posts, read 30,783,798 times
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Quote:
Science is ultimately based on assumptions, just as much as religion.
You can say that 'till the cows come home, and it still doesn't make it true.
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:02 PM
 
37,658 posts, read 25,360,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
You can say that 'till the cows come home, and it still doesn't make it true.
While JRemy obviously addresses this issue at a level you prefer to deal with . . . his assertion about the scientific assumptions is undeniably true. Your failure to establish its untruth in the many threads where you address my arguments bears witness to it. His belief in God is equally true . . . although the details and specifics are debatable. So, are you and the others having fun with the Divine Revelation belief set? Can't you just let them have their spiritual candy, stop teasing them about it . . . and come play with the adults. God is, God was, and God always will be . . . no matter how hard you try to assume Him away and ignore Him. Believers are correct . . . you are wrong. Get over it.
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,073 posts, read 4,978,075 times
Reputation: 2480
There is no need to assume there is a god. A lot of folk just buy into the nonsense that 'god' answers questions you don't currently have an answer to.
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:44 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,386,955 times
Reputation: 1321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Fair enough. I will rephrase: "Faith sees the revelation and wants to acknowledge it."
Let me fix your rephrase: "Faith sees an alleged revelation and assumes without evidence that it is true."
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