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Old 03-18-2010, 04:32 PM
 
Location: planet octupulous is nearing earths atmosphere
13,624 posts, read 10,715,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HonuMan View Post
do you think that cristianity would have more believers if the bible stated the world was 4.5 billion years old

If the Bible actually stated that, and we could verify the origins of the quote as well as its actual meaning (i.e., the literal meaning was "The earth was created a long time ago," but some modern translator took liberties and changed that to "4.5 billion years ago"), then it would be amazing -- miraculous, even -- because nobody 2,000 years ago possibly could have known the age of the earth. That would leave four possibilities that I can see: 1) It was a lucky guess. 2) An advanced alien race visited earth and told people this information. 2) Someone saw into the future and glimpsed this information by some sort of as-yet-understood quantum transfer. 4) There is a god, and the information was divinely revealed.

It does not logically follow, though, that one miraculously correct fact would imply that every other piece of information in the Bible also must be literally correct.

But all this is hypothetical. The Bible doesn't contain any specific scientific information like that, which the authors couldn't possibly have known to be true, and that we only know now because of our more advanced technology and knowledge that's been built on over time.

One thing that Campbell34 and people like him can't seem to understand is that discoveries that corroborate accounts in the Bible of non-supernatural people, places, and events do not give creedence to accounts of supernatural events. It's perfectly believable to me that there might have existed a man named Jesus who was very wise and had a lot of good things to say, things that are worth living by today. But if archaeologists find corroborating evidence of Jesus (dated, written accounts by contemporaries), there still would be no reason to believe he was born to a virgin, rose a man named Lazarus from the dead, turned water into wine, and then rose from the dead himself. Human beings create myths. There is no reason to believe that the supernatural stories surrounding Jesus are any different from all the other myths that humans have created.
i agree... it would be nice if the original bible existed untampered,, same with the qu'ran..faith is a scary word, to many things are based on faith. it's not proof. when you open a can of food you have faith that the food is safe to eat.. is it really safe???!!!! you don't know how it was handled or what was put into it.. yes we can read the label but we don't know that what the label says is true. it's basically based on faith. we are being poisoned every single day in small doses,some more than other depends on geography.
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Old 03-18-2010, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
1,082 posts, read 2,036,694 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eloy View Post

Myths are not born from emptiness. Remember! Simply it is an ancient way to write down history.
Don't get me wrong: I love myths. They get at deep truths about the human condition and allow us to examine things in different ways. For example, I can look at the Noah's Ark story as a parable that tells me that I need to prepare for hard times in my life, and that I need "keep the faith" during those hard times, because ultimately I'll reach metaphoric dry land again. Other people might read different meanings into it. That's another great thing about myths: they have multiple layers and meanings that speak to people in different ways and at different times in their lives. I don't need someone to find an intact Ark at the summit of Mt. Ararat for me to take wisdom from the story.

My problem is with people who insist that myths are literally true, and then use that premise to spread misinformation that either is harmful or is used to justify passing laws that affect people who don't believe in the literal truths of those myths. For example, perhaps you read about that case a couple weeks ago in which an Oregon couple, the Beagleys, were sentenced to 16 months in prison for failing to seek medical help for their teenage son, because they belong to a Christian sect that believes only in prayer, not in doctors. He died from a treatable urinary obstruction. Dozens of people in this sect have died from treatable illnesses since the 1950s, and I'm glad the judge and jury decided to make an example out of them. Another issue is people who vote against gay marriage based on the totally unproveable belief that there is a God who will become angry and rain down his wrath on all of society if people of the same sex are allowed to get married. I would never force churches where that belief is held to conduct gay marriages -- but neither should their beliefs be the law of the land.

I have no problem with people who practice religion as a way to live a good life, and who don't force their views on others. And if you believe that the myths are literally true, but you don't force your views on others, that's fine, too. This is forum for discussion and debate, and all points of view are welcome.
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Old 03-18-2010, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
1,082 posts, read 2,036,694 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
That is complete garbage.

But I am not going to explain the reason, because this thread is about something else.
Thanks, Shibata -- that's a very helpful and informative response. Everyone will just have to take it on faith that you're right, I guess.
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Old 03-18-2010, 05:39 PM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,317,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HonuMan View Post
Thanks, Shibata -- that's a very helpful and informative response.
Thank you for your kindness. Helpfulness and honesty are of course two of the aims of Christianity, along with personal self-control, humility, peacefulness and willingness to forgive. It is of course only natural that those who want to live dishonest lives of which they are ashamed will want to tell lies about Christianity, and one must weigh comments about it carefully.
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Old 03-18-2010, 05:43 PM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,317,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HonuMan View Post
This is forum for discussion and debate, and all points of view are welcome.
Provided they are on topic, of course, and not just abuse of a thread as a convenient vehicle to spread falsehoods.
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Old 03-18-2010, 05:47 PM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,317,403 times
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Do you think that Christianity would have more believers if the bible stated the world was 4.5 billion years old?

No, I don't. I believe that everyone believes the Bible who's ever read it and understood it. People know very well that snakes don't talk, that evil does not grow on trees, and that early Genesis is obviously allegory. But they get together with fundamentalists and use a literal interpretation as an excuse to say they do not believe.

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Old 03-18-2010, 06:58 PM
 
Location: alabama
200 posts, read 259,013 times
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In 1959 scientific american polled a group of cosmologists. It was a new science then. They asked them when the universe began. The answer given by a 2/3 majority was "begining, there was no begining, the universe has always existed".

Now most cosmologists and physicists claim there was a begining. The first three words of the bible seem to be true.

If you do not believe in God...test him.

Pray the angnostics prayer. "God, I don't even know if you exist. If you do reveal yourself to me."

Then see what happens.
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Old 03-18-2010, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
1,082 posts, read 2,036,694 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
Do you think that Christianity would have more believers if the bible stated the world was 4.5 billion years old?

No, I don't. I believe that everyone believes the Bible who's ever read it and understood it. People know very well that snakes don't talk, that evil does not grow on trees, and that early Genesis is obviously allegory. But they get together with fundamentalists and use a literal interpretation as an excuse to say they do not believe.
All sarcasm aside, I'm puzzled now about exactly where you took issue with my post. I had assumed from your response that you were a fundamentalist who took the stories in the Bible literally, but it sounds like we're in agreement about much of the Bible being allegory. And there are many people who do believe that a particular snake talked, that there was a particular apple that contained evil, and that early Genesis is a literal account of the creation of the universe. I've met people like that. There are some who post regularly on this forum. They'd probably read what you just wrote and say that you're not a "real" Christian -- or that, at the very least, you're misguided.

I think there's a lot of wonderful stuff in the Bible, and I believe that the basic Christian principles regarding love, charity, forgiveness, and so on are great. I've read the Bible, I've read scholarly commentaries on the Bible, and I'm married to a Christian and have had many discussions with her about Christianity. But I've never been able to believe in the supernatural aspects of it, particularly the exclusionary parts that say that belief in Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved.

Again, this is a forum for discussion and debate. You say I'm spreading falsehoods. Obviously, I disagree, or I wouldn't have written what I did. I can't say you're spreading falsehoods, because you declined to reply to my post, other than to say it was complete garbage. I would love to hear a reasoned response.
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Old 03-18-2010, 07:06 PM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,317,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HonuMan View Post
Again, this is a forum for discussion and debate. You say I'm spreading falsehoods.
Should those who use personal pronouns, except in mundane matters, be permitted to debate?

Last edited by shibata; 03-18-2010 at 07:24 PM..
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:03 PM
 
1,745 posts, read 1,829,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm...mabeynot View Post
In 1959 scientific american polled a group of cosmologists. It was a new science then. They asked them when the universe began. The answer given by a 2/3 majority was "begining, there was no begining, the universe has always existed".

Now most cosmologists and physicists claim there was a begining. The first three words of the bible seem to be true.
As apparently are the first few words of several hundred other creation myths, including the one the Bible was based off of.


Quote:
If you do not believe in God...test him.

Pray the agnostics prayer. "God, I don't even know if you exist. If you do reveal yourself to me."

Then see what happens.
The same thing that would happen if you did the same to Zeus, Jupiter, Horus, or Odin...

Nothing.
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