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Old 03-21-2010, 04:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
They probably are not even errors, but developments we humans don't think much of. But from our human perspective the world is pretty faulty. I find it outright depressing because of its primitive principles at times.
Darwin would not agree.
Then as now, we have a perfectly evolving system.
We just do not know which of us is the fittest.

Regards
DL
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
Hatred of goodness.
No.

They would admire god for His evil side.

Ask those at Sodom or those of Noah's day.

Even Satan has yet to best God for those. God is still # 1 for evil.

Regards
DL
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ygdrassil View Post
According to theologians, God is omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (always everywhere) and omnibenevolent (perfectly good, always).

This implies that God knows about suffering and unhappiness (omniscience implies this), wants to fix it (omnibenevolence means that he/she/it (I don't believe in the capitalization of pronouns) is solely good-hearted and implies that he (I dropped the she and it for my convenience) would want to fix all wrong) and has the ability to fix it (omnipotence means he can do anything). So why is there still suffering and unhappiness?

Some would answer that it's part of some master plan and it's better that way. But omnipotence would mean that God can still fix this pain and carry out his plan. Others would say it "builds character," whatever that really means. Again, though, if he is to be omnipotent, he could fix all wrong and still give character.

The Bible contradicts itself, forcing me to distrust its information in general. But even if you still implicitly trust the Bible, there are only two possibilities to the whole God thing. One, God is real but not necessarily omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent, two, God is not real. In either case the authors of the Bible (or at least some of them) were delusioned or liars (their tellings are not true, either they told them knowing they were telling untruths or not).
I vote for the whole Bible being a myth and God being made a wish list God for what man wants.

Regards
DL
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm...mabeynot View Post
God (being God) means that there are some things he cannot do.

Such as lie.
Being unjust.
Character is not something that can be given(IMHO), it has to be built.

God didn't make robots hegave man a free will...to do what he wants...wrong choices cause pain.
Ya ya. Free will.

Do it my way or burn forever.

Ya ya, that is free will and not a threat.

Regards
DL
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:27 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Darwin would not agree.
Then as now, we have a perfectly evolving system.
We just do not know which of us is the fittest.

Regards
DL
Darwin does not necessarily speak for mankind... The goals of human development do not necessarily match the goals, or path rather, of evolution. They diverged long ago. Take for instance genetic diseases, they may serve a purpose in the wild, but with humans they don't because we don't just give up on people. Most humans are not interested in the prevalence of the fittest, but in our abstract priorities and feelings.
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Old 03-21-2010, 07:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HonuMan View Post
The meaning of "perfection" varies according to context. For example, is a sledge hammer perfect? Perfect for what -- breaking down drywall (yes), pounding stakes into the ground (yes), pounding finishing nails into fine furniture (no), or performing brain surgery (emphatically no)? Is a species perfectly evolved for the environmental niche it occupies? Perhaps -- but environments change, and what is perfectly evolved for a niche today might not be so in a thousand years, or even 30 (look at what's happening to the polar bear as the Arctic warms).

So, in a sense, I do look around and see evolving perfection, but it's always a moving target. Those individuals born with genetic mutations that are favorable to the current environment will survive in greater numbers than those that don't have them, but as the environment changes, different genetic mutations become favorable.

Some would argue that human beings, through technology, have removed ourselves from the process of biological evolution. Individuals who wouldn't have survived in more primitive times survive today. One commonly cited example of a "flaw" is that our spines evolved for animals that walk on all fours. The fact that we evolved to walk upright is what causes so many of our back problems. What was once a perfectly evolved feature for a given use is now a flaw because it's no longer used the same way. Genetic diseases that typically flare up in middle age or later are also flaws that evolution doesn't weed out, because people usually have had children and passed on the gene before the disease hits. We may reach a point where it's possible to repair genes before the diseases hit. Maybe biological perfection eventually will become possible via medical technology. Futurist Ray Kurzweil thinks so.

Then there's the more subjective type of perfection. For example, is Beethoven's Ninth Symphony a perfect piece of music? Maybe. Many people regard it as the greatest piece of music ever written. Is "Bridge Over Troubled Water" a perfect pop song? Maybe. Is it the equal of the Ninth Symphony? That depends on your criteria. If your criteria stress musical complexity, then the Ninth clearly is better. If your criteria stress emotional impact, that depends on the listener. Both pieces of music give me shivers whenever I hear them.

Someone probably will bring up spiritual perfection. That's an even harder one to define. As we age, we mature in our spiritual development (if we're lucky, and if we work on it). Some individuals do indeed seem to reach a place of spiritual peace and harmony with our world, which one might call perfection. I don't believe the term "spiritual" is limited to a religious context; others might disagree.
I would agree with your last and would add that religions may be a hindrance to spiritual growth.
i also am pleased with your recognition of the evolving perfection around us.

Like the U S use of the word perfect in their constitution, we continuously move to a more perfect state.

You and I, when born, were as perfect as our DNA and nature could produce. We evolved to a higher level and continue till death but at no time can it be said that we are not as perfect as our DNA and nature can produce.

Regards
DL
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Old 03-21-2010, 07:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Darwin does not necessarily speak for mankind... The goals of human development do not necessarily match the goals, or path rather, of evolution. They diverged long ago. Take for instance genetic diseases, they may serve a purpose in the wild, but with humans they don't because we don't just give up on people. Most humans are not interested in the prevalence of the fittest, but in our abstract priorities and feelings.
Yet if we could find the fittest in terms of who has the best genes to fight genetic diseases, we would be well pleased.

As to us not giving up on people, this is good in the sense that we then can show our reverence for life and as you can see with age statistics, this has pushed us all to live longer. Sometimes something evil has benefits unrecognized till later.

Regards
DL
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Old 03-22-2010, 07:48 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Yet if we could find the fittest in terms of who has the best genes to fight genetic diseases, we would be well pleased.

As to us not giving up on people, this is good in the sense that we then can show our reverence for life and as you can see with age statistics, this has pushed us all to live longer. Sometimes something evil has benefits unrecognized till later.

Regards
DL
Regarding the fittest and diseases, I guess that will become more of an issue in the future, when we know of such diseases in fetuses early on and are faced with the questions as to whether or not to have an abortion.

I don't think there is evil, but things that are considered wrong, i.e. directed against society, by the majority of a given society. For instance in Africa eating elephants and gorillas is considered normal, but to Germans and probably to Americans as well it would be a sin.

I just don't see the 'perfectly evolving system' you mentioned. To me it is a depressing system whose change is based on gross principles. And that does not surprise me as, being an atheist, I don't have to reconcile that with any gods who are usually thought to be good etc.
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Regarding the fittest and diseases, I guess that will become more of an issue in the future, when we know of such diseases in fetuses early on and are faced with the questions as to whether or not to have an abortion.

I don't think there is evil, but things that are considered wrong, i.e. directed against society, by the majority of a given society. For instance in Africa eating elephants and gorillas is considered normal, but to Germans and probably to Americans as well it would be a sin.

I just don't see the 'perfectly evolving system' you mentioned. To me it is a depressing system whose change is based on gross principles. And that does not surprise me as, being an atheist, I don't have to reconcile that with any gods who are usually thought to be good etc.
First on good and evil.
In moral terms, the terms Good & Evil are only useful on a graph & are Inseparable.
I see that many just look at these terms as opposites.
Black white.
Hot cold.
Whatever.
It does not matter because, in moral terms, good and evil must be on a graph to be of any use to any discussion of moral issues.
That is why the ancients wrote them into the Bible as the tree of good and evil.
Itís fruit symbolizes that good and evil cannot be separated.

As nouns, forget it. For morals, they do not stand well alone.
As adjectives, they are good.
The issues is not what we call the ends of our graph. Good and evil are good and I do not want to discuss the issue of what good and evil mean.
It is what goes between these two adjectives that is at issue and how and where we place them on the graph.
Ideally, the good and evil line will have a top and a bottom because issues often times have both within their character.
Like God for instance.
Basically, if you are arguing good and evil in any other way than described here; you are IMHO, wasting your time.
If you look to God for our moral sense you are also wasting your time because it is to mankind to set the rules of our dominion.
Thoughts?

Next on our evolving perfection.
You cannot see the perfection of the systems around us because you focus on the errors that you see and I grant you that there are many.
You have to remember that evolution works by having errors occur. Take the errors out of it and the search for the fittest ends.

Regards
DL

Regards
DL
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Old 03-23-2010, 10:10 AM
 
354 posts, read 678,148 times
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it appears to me the root of hatred to our God is PAIN. people can't fathom to experience pain and when they see people in pain, they ask why it has to happen. Jesus death and suffering is a good lesson to reflect on that. and if you don't believe in Jesus as God or any god at all. can't you try and understand why pain has to happen? just from reading the passion of the christ story? regard at as fiction. even watch the passion of the christ movie. regard at as only a movie. you can't see why pain and suffering happens? how and who made it happen?

even the most loathed idea of eternal torture in hell is evident of the fact - people don't like pain. all i can say is, the masochist has the best life ever. they LOVE pain so much, that hell is gonna be heaven to them. i wonder if masochists worship God more for that.
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