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Old 03-23-2010, 12:38 PM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,919,925 times
Reputation: 465

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HonuMan View Post
You didn't address my central question. You just stated some of your beliefs (most of whch I disagree with), but you didn't say how you arrived at those beliefs, or whether you've seriously studied the other beliefs and cultures that you consider demonic and wrong. I don't claim to have absolute certainty with regard to my own beliefs, but I arrived at them by studying the alternatives I was aware of and seeing what made the most sense. In my experience, people who steadfastly claim that their way is the only right and true way, and can't provide any evidence to support it ("It says so in the Bible" isn't evidence), generally haven't looked into and gained an understanding of other viewpoints. Conversely, the more you study and try to understand other viewpoints, the more you find that many of your own views are relative and even arbitrary -- something that was handed down to you, which was handed down to the people who handed it down to you, and so on, but which isn't necessarily better than what other people had handed down to them. I don't believe in a literal heaven, but if I did, the idea that "good people don't get into heaven" -- that only people people who adhere to a technicality get into heaven -- would strike me as opposed to Jesus' message of love, peace, humility, tolerance, and forgiveness. But that's another discussion topic.
You obviously don't know of Jesus, claiming that his message was one of love, peace, humility, tolerance and forgiveness. So, this is one religion you have not studied! Jesus Christ is not a technicallity. He is the Son of God and the only way for salvation.

When the FBI trains people to detect counterfeit money, they do not study every possible piece of counterfeit to determine what to look for, though they probably have many examples, rather they study the true bills. The reason is that when they spot something different or wrong in circulation, they know the bill is counterfeit. The same is with religion. I have studied the truth and know all other religions are a lie. I am aware of many other religions and cultures, but I study the truth in God's word, so that when confronted by false doctrines or religions I can spot them a mile away and keep my distance.

There is the answer to your question.

 
Old 03-23-2010, 12:43 PM
 
2,893 posts, read 5,165,166 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
The history books are constantly being rewritten based on new evidence. And the evidence points to Muslim involvement. Was it not the Muslims who conquered Palistine in the seventh century? This is the begining of the crusades to free the holy land. If there was no Muslim conquering, then there would be no need for the Pope to attempt to free the holy land. However, the pope was in error by giving indulgences to the crusaders. This is evil and was fought against by Martin Luther later in the 1500's, hence the Reformation.

Let's see... seventh century. That would be, what about 650 AD?

And the Crusades started in 1095. Let me point out that, in general, once you've "occupied" a land for the better part of four hundred years, it's yours. Anybody coming to kick you off it is an invader.
 
Old 03-23-2010, 12:52 PM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,919,925 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Arrogant and what more can I say? It was a knife because you caused the DEATH of thousands of Jewish people and exiled them from your countries when they wouldn't convert.

Death and more death and destruction.... Forget the heart and Jesus and what you believe.

Christianity is an arrogant religion that cares not one bit for the people it hurts in the process of its missionary work.
I disagree.

Many Jewish people have died in the past, but so have many other nations under evil men. For example 12 million Ukrainians under Stalin.

Christians give safe harbor to Jews, because we believe in the same God, unfortunately a portion of the Jewish nation has not accepted their own Messiah. But we have! But as I said the day is coming when the eyes of the Jewish nation will be opened and they will not look for the messiah to come, but realize that he came. The on that day we will truely be brothers for you will accept our Messiah and your Messiah.

And those ungodly men who have abused Christ and his name for their own vile purposes will be rooted out. They will be cut out of the olive tree and the original branch (Judaism) will be grafted in.

This is the two witness as stated in the book of Revelation by John. The two witnesses are the Jews and the Gentiles, preaching the good news of Jesus Christ together.
 
Old 03-23-2010, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
1,082 posts, read 2,032,595 times
Reputation: 1260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
You obviously don't know of Jesus, claiming that his message was one of love, peace, humility, tolerance and forgiveness. So, this is one religion you have not studied! Jesus Christ is not a technicallity. He is the Son of God and the only way for salvation.
I will admit to being guilty of what everybody who references the Bible does: cherry picking the parts that are consistent with the point I want to make. Yeah, I pay attention to those parts of the Bible that are consistent with treating one's fellow human beings well, and ignore the parts that condone cruelty because it's part of God's inscrutable will. But then, I look at the Bible from a philosophical standpoint, not a religious standpoint.

Quote:
When the FBI trains people to detect counterfeit money, they do not study every possible piece of counterfeit to determine what to look for, though they probably have many examples, rather they study the true bills. The reason is that when they spot something different or wrong in circulation, they know the bill is counterfeit. The same is with religion. I have studied the truth and know all other religions are a lie. I am aware of many other religions and cultures, but I study the truth in God's word, so that when confronted by false doctrines or religions I can spot them a mile away and keep my distance.

There is the answer to your question.
Then you proved my point: You exposed yourself to one point of view and decided that it's the only truth, and now you reject out of hand as "evil" or "untrue" anything that's different without even studying it. That's the very definition of prejudice.

And your analogy is flawed: American money was designed and created by humans. Humans decided that it would be the only legitimate currency of the nation. Nobody questions the existence of American money; if someone asks, "You Americans have money? Prove it," I can pull a bill out of my wallet (well, most of the time, anyway). Conversely, you contend that what is in the Bible was designed and created by God. You say that God decided it's the only legitimate religion and truth. Yet you can provide absolutely no evidence to support this claim, and why anyone should believe your version of divinely revealed truth rather than all the other competing versions of divinely revealed truth that have no evidence to support them.
 
Old 03-23-2010, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Cypress, TX
587 posts, read 1,198,656 times
Reputation: 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
But what if those with other beliefs were trying to pass laws that were in direct contrast to yours? Say hypothetically, these others were trying to pass legislation that would prohibit you from going to church on Sunday. Say Muslims started to lobby for everyone going to church on their holy day, Friday. How would you feel about that? I'll wager you wouldn't be happy to just sit quiet and be tolerant then would you? You see, that's just the sort of thing that atheists are fighting against. We see the constant interference of religion in state matters as an infringement on our freedom and way of life. Just like you are tolerant of others beliefs as long as they don't affect you, we are tolerant of yours....as long as they don't affect us. When they do, we start kicking.
Of course I would have issues with passing laws contrary to my beliefs and would try to fight them, but it happens to people all over the world, all the time (for all religions). Luckily, that's not the case here in the United States. Are there laws right now that are infringing on atheists? I'm asking because I honestly don't know. I don't know of any laws that that actually infringe upon anyone's lives here in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fullback32 View Post
I'm sorry, I thought the you people were to be the lamp. That through you all men would be led to Christ. That by your actions...by your fruits...we would know you and him. Wasn't part of being "born again" that your old nature was put away? So, your actions should be scrutinized by those you wish to reach. You cannot say to people, "Hear my words and follow them, but ignore what I do because I suck." It doesn't work that way.
Unfortunately, it kinda does. I mean, we try, but:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans 3:9-10
No One is Righteous

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[a]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
I try my best to be a lamp, but I'm sure I fail, because of my sinful nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
It is not the religions, it is the heart of man that is desperately wicked and has used religion to persue his own ends.
Amen! Like I said, you cannot blame God for the actions of humans; we are the ones who do what we choose and shake our fist at him; we always fall short of his desires for us. There are many things that have been done that people of other religions hate Christians for and I believe with all my heart that God isn't a fan of those things either. Again, this is why he had to send Jesus to die on the cross; we're screw-ups!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
Prove it.
Outreach 100: Largest and Fastest-Growing Churches in America | Christianpost.com

The Baptist Standard :: The Newsmagazine of Texas Baptists - Non-denominational, Baptist churches dominate list of fastest-growing

Overall, church attendance may be down, there's no question about it. But there are a lot of churches that are growing. My impression is that people are walking away from denominational churches, but turning to non-denominational bible churches (my personal experience, not something I've read on the 'net).

I've been a regular attender of two churches (one in Phoenix and one in St Paul) in my 5 years as a Christian and both were/are growing. I've met a lot of people from denominational churches (a lot had walked away from the church altogether years ago because of bad experiences with said religions), but they are now coming back to a relationship with Jesus Christ, not a religion. THAT is where you see growth.


I also found this article: BlueCoffee - BlogNow

They point out things such as this:


Quote:
Non-denominational membership doubled between 1990 and 2001, according to our analysis. We believe the growth in attendance at non-denominational churches marks the emergence of a broader trend in which denominational affiliation is perceived as an unnecessary limiting factor in attracting new members. We believe the notable success of non-denominational mega-churches throughout the country is supporting evidence of this trend. While church attendance at the average American church increased by 12% between 2000 and 2005, average church attendance at mega-churches across the country increased by an astounding 57.3%.

They have many items that back up what I'm saying about non-denominational churches on the blog; however, they don't seem to site any sources other than their own analysis, so I'm not sure where they got their info.
 
Old 03-23-2010, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,837 posts, read 9,645,205 times
Reputation: 2391
Quote:
Originally Posted by intmd8r View Post
Of course I would have issues with passing laws contrary to my beliefs and would try to fight them, but it happens to people all over the world, all the time (for all religions). Luckily, that's not the case here in the United States. Are there laws right now that are infringing on atheists? I'm asking because I honestly don't know. I don't know of any laws that that actually infringe upon anyone's lives here in the US.
I don't know about America but in the UK the church is fighting against Stem Cell Research and other scientific advances. These things could benefit humanity enormously so this constant blocking by religion does have an affect on those that don't share their religious beliefs.

You do confirm though, that you are only tolerant of others religious beliefs for as long as they don't infringe on yours...which is just like atheists. I think I can speak for most atheists when I say I really don't give a damn if you want to believe in mythical deities, mermaids or fairies at the bottom of your garden...just keep it to yourself. Don't expect others to remain silent whilst you claim your belief in fairies to be "Truth" and threaten others with damnation just because they don't believe in your fairies (not saying you personally do that btw, just speaking of theists generally).

Last edited by Rafius; 03-23-2010 at 01:59 PM..
 
Old 03-23-2010, 03:26 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,295,713 times
Reputation: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
I disagree.

Many Jewish people have died in the past, but so have many other nations under evil men. For example 12 million Ukrainians under Stalin.

Christians give safe harbor to Jews, because we believe in the same God, unfortunately a portion of the Jewish nation has not accepted their own Messiah. But we have! But as I said the day is coming when the eyes of the Jewish nation will be opened and they will not look for the messiah to come, but realize that he came. The on that day we will truely be brothers for you will accept our Messiah and your Messiah.

And those ungodly men who have abused Christ and his name for their own vile purposes will be rooted out. They will be cut out of the olive tree and the original branch (Judaism) will be grafted in.

This is the two witness as stated in the book of Revelation by John. The two witnesses are the Jews and the Gentiles, preaching the good news of Jesus Christ together.
You can not rewrite history... Christians did unspeakable things to their own then they went after the Jews and Muslims.

I am not even including what Christians did to native Americans but Ill add that too now. Christianity has caused much sorrow in the world and you cannot change history. All in the name of Jesus and salvation.

 
Old 03-23-2010, 05:36 PM
 
Location: G-Town
428 posts, read 896,568 times
Reputation: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Christianity has caused much sorrow in the world and you cannot change history. All in the name of Jesus and salvation.
Christianity didn't do those things, evil humans did. And, sadly, those types are found in all walks of life, regardless of religion, race, creed, color or nation.
 
Old 03-23-2010, 05:41 PM
 
Location: alabama
200 posts, read 258,581 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
You can not rewrite history... Christians did unspeakable things to their own then they went after the Jews and Muslims.

I am not even including what Christians did to native Americans but Ill add that too now. Christianity has caused much sorrow in the world and you cannot change history. All in the name of Jesus and salvation.
Yes this is true, the facts speak for themselves.

But today in this modern world the christian may be the Jew's best friend.

Many things are done in the "name" of religion. But if they followed the scripture these things would not be true. It is time to quit throwing stones and let God be the judge.
 
Old 03-23-2010, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Cypress, TX
587 posts, read 1,198,656 times
Reputation: 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
I don't know about America but in the UK the church is fighting against Stem Cell Research and other scientific advances. These things could benefit humanity enormously so this constant blocking by religion does have an affect on those that don't share their religious beliefs.
Interesting. I did not know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
You do confirm though, that you are only tolerant of others religious beliefs for as long as they don't infringe on yours...which is just like atheists. I think I can speak for most atheists when I say I really don't give a damn if you want to believe in mythical deities, mermaids or fairies at the bottom of your garden...just keep it to yourself. Don't expect others to remain silent whilst you claim your belief in fairies to be "Truth" and threaten others with damnation just because they don't believe in your fairies (not saying you personally do that btw, just speaking of theists generally).
I know you're not saying I personally do this, but I just want to clarify one little thing. I don't think someone sharing their beliefs with me infringes on mine at all. If they blocked me from going to church or something, that would be infringing. I don't mind people sharing their beliefs with me.

Of course, I'm sure there are plenty out there who do exactly what you say about threatening damnation and such if you don't believe what they do. The whole "fire and brimstone" thing and all.

Jesus did not call anyone to be his attorney. We aren't called to force people into anything or scare them. We are only called to share the good news. What people do with it is their business.
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