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Old 03-24-2010, 10:57 AM
1,838 posts, read 1,936,705 times
Reputation: 179


Originally Posted by intmd8r View Post
Again, for me, it comes back to the evil hearts of men, not our perfect and holy God. We are ALL sinful in nature.

I agree with most of this. God IS love and yes, he loves EVERYONE. However, a common misconception is that he hurls people into hell, when in fact, he offers each and every one of us a way out. He doesn't WANT anyone going to hell because he loves us all. But some people unfortunately do choose that route, simply by rejecting the love and salvation from our Lord Jesus Christ.
you hardly expect everyone to hear about Jesus ,what about kids that die-what about people born before Jesus-what about all the different cultures in the world that differ from that of the jews-God dosent want people goin to hell you say so why is He putting people here knowing that they will

if every child that dies gets automaticilly into heaven then it would be best to kill them all right now and gaurantee their place in heaven instead of them growing old and makin a descision that would cost them everything-their is no justice in never ending punishment -if this was the truth id kill me own kids now -i wouldnt care what happens to me -God is mercifull their is no limit to His mercy-you reap what you sow and their is nom crime that in the universe that would deserve eternal punishment-especially something as simple as not beleiving in God-if somebody dosent beleive in God its not goin to make a difference to Him -you cant hurt God He is all powerfull-

question-you beleive the bible right-on what day did He create this eternal hell place

Old 03-24-2010, 11:07 AM
4,083 posts, read 4,311,749 times
Reputation: 806
Originally Posted by Runemaster View Post
And anyone who teaches that, or tells you it's true is wrong. You don't get into Heaven by saving souls. You get into Heaven by putting your faith in Christ Jesus. Grace cannot be earned, but it can be lost.

I care about you. I'm sad that you seem to be hurting. It burdens my heart that have been injured by people who have fallen prey to the one who "prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." And, I've prayed in the last five minutes that you experience some healing from those wounds.

I am not hurting, I just do not like this particular theology of Christianity that they are missionary religion. I think alot of harm has been done in the name of Christianity and as a Jew my Jewish family has been one of those hurt in the name of Christianity. Yet many of the posters here seem not to get that because its all about souls to them. People have posted that they don't care what people think about their proselytizing. Christians seem not to get that not everyone wants to be Christian or cares about Christianity. Not all of us think we are going to hell. We just live our lives and have our faith and that is just fine with us. We neither need or want to be proselyted to.....
Old 03-24-2010, 11:09 AM
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,931,512 times
Reputation: 465
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
So, to be clear, Heaven will have Christian Gay Pride Parades?

No, I don't think so! I said that a homosexual must turn from their wicked ways and accept Jesus as Lord (that is for Jesus to excercise Lordship over his or her life). There is no other way into heaven then through the redemtive work of Christ.
Old 03-24-2010, 11:19 AM
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,931,512 times
Reputation: 465
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
NIKK my friend: I'm thinking you may have missed my request to you in post #124. or, are you just ignoring it?

Back on that same page, mmm...mabeynot asked, in post #126, why we atheists show up everywhere and comment. Apparently with unwelcome, unsolicited commentary. Well, we show up "everywhere" there's a debate or the thin possibility of a truly open-minded exchange as to the realities of God and Christianity. You know, to test it as something beyond a philosophy without utility. Because most of us have, indeed, been past-theists.

We didn't come to our current well-argued positions absent some critical thinking, unanswered questions from our ministers, or that seminal moment in Sunday School when you look at the pleasant but uninspired "Miss Jones" who is gooey-babbling all that nonsense stuff as she hands out truly impossibly silly comic books showing Noah actually leading two of everything, especially those mandatory giraffes, onto a too-small barge. A light certainly went on in my head back then, and apparently, in others' as well.

But then, when we do show up here, we find that although we have given time and consideration to the problems with any mandated and formalized spirituality system, there's simply too many rules that contravene and contradict each other! The organization of it all is staggering, and leads to obvious problems. So, we're simply here to help is all!

Many things are stated by devout Christians. If they kept it to themselves, all huddled down at their church and talking of and to themselves, no-one would notice or want to be involved. But a basic tenet of the Christian religion is to go forth and proselytize. It's sold to the members (who as a rule generally do not question others' thinking) as an example of loving thy neighbor, and simply wanting to "save" him and show her the way to a good, Godly life. And to welcome them into the brotherhood of life and love of their church (and which, Oh BTW, always needs new congregation members).

In fact, the topmost organizers of Christianity see the obvious necessity to extend their power over others' lives to as many people as possible, to contain and grow the flock. Why? For one thing, it's the flock that tithes.

My wife's church pastor recently announced that there would have to be cutbacks in various church functions due to a significant drop in the congregation numbers, coupled with a drop in weekly donations and tithes resulting from our current economic problems. Which ain't going away any time soon, I'm betting. Yep, even if we force prayer back into our schools, and stop abortion!

And for another, up-to-date knowledge and common sense amongst the masses is anathema, and MUST be dominated. This was more than convincingly demonstrated in The Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch hunts, the various punishments meted out if a congregation member is disobedient or downright defiant and traditional Christian obedience training.

Heaven help the critical thinker.!

So, Christians show up on this public forum, and make their assumptive and absolutist statements. They then couple those with rampant denialism on scientific topics.

As a philosophical alternative, mmm, why didn't you say: "I appreciate that you are willing to come here and examine both ours' and your philosophies, to compare and contrast them, and to share the reasons you left our loving church."

Instead, by your tone, I'd say you'd like to have us debating and argumentative atheists excused, to have us "leave the room" here, as you did in Spain, etc. And just as several deep-in-the-mire US state school-boards are now trying to accomplish in their efforts to mandate Christian religious studies IN PLACE OF science's knowledge.

The wholesale suppression of knowledge: now that's worth fighting, don't you agree? The US is already ranked 21st globally in the achievement of scientific knowledge by our school kids, and yet we're supposed to be the technological ideas hot-house! Those relentless acts of academic suppression by the church surely won't improve that ugly statistic.

So I'm afraid you'll just have to abide our commentary. It's just our way of showing concern for the preservation and advancement of our species. Well, at least the H. sapiens skepticalus sub-species. Don't worry though; that will soon enough become the dominant species, absent another Inquisition....
It is written not to cast your pearls before swine, but for the sake of those who are reading R&P I will respond to that post.
Old 03-24-2010, 11:21 AM
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,135,370 times
Reputation: 2035
Originally Posted by Runemaster View Post
If all you want to see is evil, then that's all you'll see. How about looking for the good done by Christians:

Invisible Children - Home
Acholi Beads - Uganda Beads Made By The Acholi Tribe
Sponsor a Child - Compassion
Sponsor a well in Africa with Lifewater Canada (Life Water)
About us - Christian Aid
Sponsor a Child < Home - Help for Chile Earthquake Relief, Donate Now | World Vision

I could fill five screens with more links, but I'm sure this will be enough to help you find what you're looking for...
It is not deniable that Christians have done and do some good things. However, too often there is a "rider" that goes along with those good deeds. That rider is the attempt to change the people they help. Rather than letting those good deeds speak for themselves and letting their lives do the talking, words become the focus. The rider is too high a price to pay for some of us. The words "kill the Indian; save the man" is something we have not forgotten.

Yes, some Christians do good things, but they are far outweighed by the evil Christians.
Old 03-24-2010, 11:46 AM
2,893 posts, read 5,182,379 times
Reputation: 1973
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
No, I don't think so! I said that a homosexual must turn from their wicked ways and accept Jesus as Lord (that is for Jesus to excercise Lordship over his or her life). There is no other way into heaven then through the redemtive work of Christ.

Whoa now, nobody said they would be doing anything homosexual. But that wouldn't change their nature. They could still be homosexual, but not commit any sin. So the Gay Pride Parade down Gabriel Avenue is still a possibility.
Old 03-24-2010, 11:52 AM
880 posts, read 1,697,544 times
Reputation: 623
All them sundays spent in church will be in vain when you are dead.
Old 03-24-2010, 11:52 AM
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 8,016,713 times
Reputation: 3602
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
It is written not to cast your pearls before swine, but for the sake of those who are reading R&P I will respond to that post.
Then this "god" of yours is casting his pearls of wisdom before you and you ignore them.

Explains a lot.
Old 03-24-2010, 11:55 AM
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,135,370 times
Reputation: 2035
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
Becuase us Christians are told by our creator Jesus Christ that we must go into all nations preaching the gospel (good news of Jesus), making disciples and baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You can believe what you believe, but our beliefs are not yours! We believe we must spread the gospel.
Nor are your beliefs ours; therefore, you shouldn't be surprised when some of us resist. Unfortunately the spreading the gospel has gone hand in hand with the destruction of a people and their culture.

It has never been enough to "spread the gospel", but with it comes the need to change to people themselves. Those videos that ptsum posted are true. (BTW ptsum, I am friends with Albert White Hat's daughter...nice to see him in that video!) Those events actually happened. What you would call "true believers" not only attempted to change our belief systems, but also tried to transform the people into being what we are not. IT amazes me when I hear people sweeping this under the carpet and excusing it away under the words of, "well those people weren't really Christians then" or worse yet, blaming it on the devil as I saw one poster do earlier.

My grandfathers experienced it. My mother experienced it. In its own form, I experienced it at Catholic School and in the fundamentalist churches my ex-wife drug me to. I will never forget the people in the last church (1994) I stepped foot in telling me I should no longer go to powwow (which is a social thing, not a religious thing BTW). I will not forget attempting to explain this to them and the pastor and being told that I wasn't truly one of the saved unless I gave that up. I remember being told I could no longer play in the church band unless I stopped. I remember being told not to pray in Comanche. I remember being told to no longer pray with the pipe, even though those prayers were going to Jesus. OF course, there was the whole hypocrisy thing going on as well.

I am a Comanche....not a white man. The "spreading of the gospel" and being "saved" (in our experience) has not been just a matter of believing in Jesus as being who you say he is. It has also been a matter of attempting to change us into white men...into their image. This has been the the way that evangelizers have gone about their business of spreading the gospel among cultures other than Eurocentric cultures. I do not and will not accept that your Jesus intended this.

Last edited by Fullback32; 03-24-2010 at 12:04 PM..
Old 03-24-2010, 12:35 PM
Location: G-Town
428 posts, read 899,420 times
Reputation: 162
Originally Posted by justme58 View Post
As for the sin, you have to convince me that my "mistakes" in life were actually sins and NOT mistakes.
Sin means to "miss the mark". There is no connotation in the origin of the word that relates to doing it willfully. Few people willingly sin, but everyone sins.
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