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1. It assumes that there are only two options-belief in the christian god or atheism. The problem with this is that there are 3000 gods that are worshipped on the planet. If Yaweh is imaginary and Ra is the one true god then you'll go to hell for not worshipping Ra.
I'll give you that. Those are certainly possibilities, albeit they don't have the amount of historical documents to back them up, which is probably why they're discounted in these types of discussions. Or maybe I'm just ignorant and unfamiliar with the thousands of historical documents and such.
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2. It assumes that god rewards belief and punishes disbelief. If there is a god this may not be the case. What if god rewards reason and punishes faith or what if god rewards disbelief and punishes belief.
It doesn't assume, it knows, because this is what the bible states. The only way to the Father is through the Son. Period.
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3. It assumes that an afterlife is heaven/hell based although what if the afterlife is rebirth/reincarnation based. If Hinduism is true then you will be reincarnated as a lower lifeform because you didn't do your darhma.
Granted, this is also true if it turns out Hinduism is true. I will not argue that.
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4. The wager assumes you lose nothing by believing. This is not so. If there is no afterlife or a different afterlife than the one you believed in, then you will have devoted your life to a delusion. The inordinate amount of time, money, love and energy you wasted on praise, worship etc. could have been given to real people and real things.
Well, this one I simply cannot agree with. I was not a Christian until 2005. My life has changed since then, obviously, but I am now giving my time and treasures, love and energy, etc. MORE to real people and real things. I don't really know how to explain it, because I know my life is different now, as I'm more patient, forgiving, slower to anger, etc. than I used to be, but I don't FEEL different, like I'm possible "wasting" time on God.
I feel that if I'm wrong, at least I led a better life than I would have without Him. Of course, I didn't feel I was living a bad life before, and I wasn't. But I'm much more generous and contribute positively to others (and not just myself) than I used to be. That's not wasting; that's a good thing.
Of course, there are many good people who do these things and don't believe in God and recognize Jesus as their Savior. I'm just saying this has been my experience. It's not like I have to spend hours of every day doing nothing but worshiping and praying, etc. I live my life, just like anyone else, but I'm doing so in a much more productive way. Again, not wasting at all. Exactly the opposite, in fact. My resources were far more wasted in my pre-Christian years.
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As a sidenote, if everything comes from god then it follows that reason came from god; therefore god would expect you to use your abilities of reason. Given the fact there is no empirically verified evidence for god it would be rational to not believe in their existence. Assuming there is a god, it would thus be more likely they'd reward an atheist who lived their life morally and came to their conclusion through reason and punish the devout believer whom formed their conclusions on faith.
But if you REALLY study this, I mean really, you would see evidential facts backup up the bible. Just as Lee Strobel (who has probably been discussed here already) did when he set out to disprove God through research. Just as the lawyer who wrote "Darwin on Trial" found when he tried to set up a case against the existence of God. These people believed what you are saying and set out to prove it, only to prove the opposite and convert to Christianity.
I think God DOES want us to use our brains and our reason, but not be lazy about it. Do the research for yourself. Do the legwork. If you don't want to, that's fine, too. But be prepared to answer for it.
I'll give you that. Those are certainly possibilities, albeit they don't have the amount of historical documents to back them up, which is probably why they're discounted in these types of discussions. Or maybe I'm just ignorant and unfamiliar with the thousands of historical documents and such.
It doesn't assume, it knows, because this is what the bible states. The only way to the Father is through the Son. Period.
Granted, this is also true if it turns out Hinduism is true. I will not argue that.
Well, this one I simply cannot agree with. I was not a Christian until 2005. My life has changed since then, obviously, but I am now giving my time and treasures, love and energy, etc. MORE to real people and real things. I don't really know how to explain it, because I know my life is different now, as I'm more patient, forgiving, slower to anger, etc. than I used to be, but I don't FEEL different, like I'm possible "wasting" time on God.
I feel that if I'm wrong, at least I led a better life than I would have without Him. Of course, I didn't feel I was living a bad life before, and I wasn't. But I'm much more generous and contribute positively to others (and not just myself) than I used to be. That's not wasting; that's a good thing.
Of course, there are many good people who do these things and don't believe in God and recognize Jesus as their Savior. I'm just saying this has been my experience. It's not like I have to spend hours of every day doing nothing but worshiping and praying, etc. I live my life, just like anyone else, but I'm doing so in a much more productive way. Again, not wasting at all. Exactly the opposite, in fact. My resources were far more wasted in my pre-Christian years.
But if you REALLY study this, I mean really, you would see evidential facts backup up the bible. Just as Lee Strobel (who has probably been discussed here already) did when he set out to disprove God through research. Just as the lawyer who wrote "Darwin on Trial" found when he tried to set up a case against the existence of God. These people believed what you are saying and set out to prove it, only to prove the opposite and convert to Christianity.
I think God DOES want us to use our brains and our reason, but not be lazy about it. Do the research for yourself. Do the legwork. If you don't want to, that's fine, too. But be prepared to answer for it.
I did the legwork and the research and came to the very considered conclusion that there was indeed no deity of any kind, Christian or otherwise.
Many , many Atheists have studied Religion in all its forms and aspects. In fact many Atheists I know, know "holy" scriptures better than many believers.
I spent years reading scriptures, investigating various faiths and even praying with a sincere heart. I was brought up in an environment of many denominations and encouraged to study and challenge not only most fa
iths but my own assumptions on them.
All it reinforced at the end of the day was that religion is very much a human construct and that it is impossible for me to have the slightest shred of religious belief. I have seen no proof, no evidence of any creator , no validation of the "truth" of the Bible or any other such "sacred" texts for that matter.
Rationality to me dictates
that the idea of a supernatural being as being an utter falsehood and a scientific impossibility.
Being an Atheist is the only logical conclusion for me.
I'll give you that. Those are certainly possibilities, albeit they don't have the amount of historical documents to back them up, which is probably why they're discounted in these types of discussions. Or maybe I'm just ignorant and unfamiliar with the thousands of historical documents and such.
Christianity doesn't have as much historical truth as you give it credit for. There are no contemporary accounts of Jesus. The first writings of such a man were in 69CE, over 40 years after his supposed death. The writings of people like Josephus, Tacitus etc. aren't credible since they aren't contemporaries.
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It doesn't assume, it knows, because this is what the bible states. The only way to the Father is through the Son. Period.
This is a value judgement. You're making the assumption that the bible is infallible when it is definitely not infallible. Alot of it has been disproven and the rest of it isn't reliable. Just because the bible says it's so, doesn't make it so. You can't prove that the biblical afterlife is true is true, therefore it is just as likely that reincarnation is true. Also, you claim that Jesus ias the only way, yet you provide no evidence for this. By evidence I mean that which has been empirically verified.
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Granted, this is also true if it turns out Hinduism is true. I will not argue that.
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Well, this one I simply cannot agree with. I was not a Christian until 2005. My life has changed since then, obviously, but I am now giving my time and treasures, love and energy, etc. MORE to real people and real things. I don't really know how to explain it, because I know my life is different now, as I'm more patient, forgiving, slower to anger, etc. than I used to be, but I don't FEEL different, like I'm possible "wasting" time on God.
This isn't the case with the majority of atheists. Most atheists are forgiving, moral patient people whom give their time to others. Another problem here is that you don't take into account the inordinate amount of time wasted on prayer, church etc. While you may not feel your wasting your time, Pascal's Wager assumes that religion would benefit everyone, although this is simply not the case. When I 'converted' to atheism, I found that it had been a waste.
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I feel that if I'm wrong, at least I led a better life than I would have without Him. Of course, I didn't feel I was living a bad life before, and I wasn't. But I'm much more generous and contribute positively to others (and not just myself) than I used to be. That's not wasting; that's a good thing.
Of course, there are many good people who do these things and don't believe in God and recognize Jesus as their Savior. I'm just saying this has been my experience. It's not like I have to spend hours of every day doing nothing but worshiping and praying, etc. I live my life, just like anyone else, but I'm doing so in a much more productive way. Again, not wasting at all. Exactly the opposite, in fact. My resources were far more wasted in my pre-Christian years.
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But if you REALLY study this, I mean really, you would see evidential facts backup up the bible. Just as Lee Strobel (who has probably been discussed here already) did when he set out to disprove God through research. Just as the lawyer who wrote "Darwin on Trial" found when he tried to set up a case against the existence of God. These people believed what you are saying and set out to prove it, only to prove the opposite and convert to Christianity.
I think God DOES want us to use our brains and our reason, but not be lazy about it. Do the research for yourself. Do the legwork. If you don't want to, that's fine, too. But be prepared to answer for it.
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The obvious flaw in this argument is that you make the leaping assumption that I have never done any research, when in actuality it was research and thinking that lead me to atheism. You claim that there's evidence for god and all you have to do is research, but this is not so. Evidence constitutes as that which has been verified empirically. God is a complete and utter failure in that regard.
Everyone who has beliefs, one way or another, always seems to be so very confident that what they believe is true. But that begs the question, (since we're all flawed humans who make mistakes daily):
What if you're wrong?
For me, as Christ Follower, if I'm wrong, I simply take a dirt nap when I die and that's that. In the days when I was a card carrying agnostic, I would have missed out on far more...
So, what happens if you're wrong?
Disclaimer: this isn't intended to start a flame war or illicit angry responses. if reading anything in this thread entices you to post in anger or with the intent to flame anyone, please walk away and find a more constructive outlet for your energy. Thanks!
I can't believe in a god who would dump us on the planet in a state of blind confusion and competing, everchanging dogma but still expect us to sort it all out and pick the right path with only our own impressionable feelings to guide us. And, if we chose wrong or never even heard of the "right" church, we would still be fated to suffer for eternity in endless torture?!
If that is how it is, god is too cruel, unfair and self-centered to deserve my adoration. I would really be a victim, not a heretic of such a god, even if I was wrong.
But if not, I will have lived my life more free, intelligently and with more opportunites to grow. I will be free of needless guilt and fear, and be able to devote more time and effort into things that are more useful. I will have access to the entire scope of human existence for knowledge and understanding instead of discounting it because it is not approved by my priest or pastor.
In the end, I will have a greater perspective on existence than a hardcore believer who refuses to even see what dosen't fit inside their narrow view of existence. And on top of that, I won't be a sucker, who is manipulated and taken advantage of by some organization(s) for the benefit if said organization(s).
Christianity doesn't have as much historical truth as you give it credit for. There are no contemporary accounts of Jesus. The first writings of such a man were in 69CE, over 40 years after his supposed death. The writings of people like Josephus, Tacitus etc. aren't credible since they aren't contemporaries.
But no one doubts the accounts of say, Julius Caesar, do they? Why is that? Why are those historical documents accepted and historical documents that document the life of Jesus (which are far more plentiful than those of Caesar, etc.) suspect and not credible?
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Originally Posted by agnostic soldier
The obvious flaw in this argument is that you make the leaping assumption that I have never done any research, when in actuality it was research and thinking that lead me to atheism. You claim that there's evidence for god and all you have to do is research, but this is not so. Evidence constitutes as that which has been verified empirically. God is a complete and utter failure in that regard.
For this I apologize, as you're right, I should never make any such assumption about anyone.
But no one doubts the accounts of say, Julius Caesar, do they? Why is that? Why are those historical documents accepted and historical documents that document the life of Jesus (which are far more plentiful than those of Caesar, etc.) suspect and not credible?
Sorry but that is simply not true. there is nowhere near the historical documentation for Jesus as there is Julius Ceasar. In fact, there is NO reliable contemporary historical documentation of Jesus at all. The elapsed time between the gospel reports and the supposed events that they describe is at least 40 years for 'Mark' and 60-70 years for the other three Gospels.
In the days when I was a card carrying agnostic, I would have missed out on far more...
I've been an atheist all of my adult life but I've never received an official card. Did you have to join a club or something? In any case I'm just following the evidence, or in the case of religion, the lack of evidence that God is real. If it turns out that I'm wrong maybe he'll be able to explain why he was hiding it from me.
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