What if you're wrong? (salvation, disciple, quotes, punished)
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Well, that is to be expected isn't it? The poster asked a question that implies a response to Christianity. In other words the real question he posed is, "what if you are wrong about whatever it is you believe or don't believe about an afterlife and Christianity is correct?"I now have a question for you:
If I am wrong, then this is my problem and between Creator and myself, so why do you care?
I'm pretty sure, FB, that the correct answer, for which you'll get official Brownie Points, is that the greater Church structure demands that the multitudes go forth and proselytize. Otherwise, where would the Church end up in short order? It's having enough problems these days with falling congregation size as the oldsters die off, and the "Immediate Gratification" video-graphic computer-raised generation does not want to sit patiently and be finger-waggled by Pastor Bob, or to passionately sing "We shall gather at the river!"
(...cut to that church scene from "High Noon").
Absent a positive recruitment number, the organized, formalized Church structure will pass into ancient history. Enthusiastic Youth Pastors notwithstanding, the percentage of kids that will buy into a standard old Christian storyline is rapidly dwindling. They may be "captured" by some new video game that roles in death-ray dealings aimed towards the evil atheist hordes, or that ascerts some moral superiority over us ethically bereft materialistic failures.
This isn't the case with the majority of atheists. Most atheists are forgiving, moral patient people whom give their time to others. Another problem here is that you don't take into account the inordinate amount of time wasted on prayer, church etc. While you may not feel your wasting your time, Pascal's Wager assumes that religion would benefit everyone, although this is simply not the case. When I 'converted' to atheism, I found that it had been a waste.
And this may very well be the case, there's no question. However, in THIS thread, I'm finding that many of the non-Christians are mocking, snarky and sarcastic, some even mean, just like I used to be. I am MUCH more tolerant of others and their beliefs now than I was 5 years ago and others around me have noticed it. In this, I feel that even if I'm wrong, I will have led a better life than before I became a Christian and for that alone I am happy. That was my point, along with the increased volunteering and giving to charity that I now do (which is certainly not exclusive to Christians, of course).
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Originally Posted by Jazzymom
I also don't push my beliefs on others because I don't believe you need to be Jewish to be a part of G-ds plan. All people are part of G-ds plan and all people can be righteous in G-d's eyes...
I have a sense of well being with my belief and I feel a sense of happiness that I don't have to feel like I have the only truth and I am be respectful of others. Those religions that think they are right and everyone is wrong are really arrogant and disrespectful of humanity.
I don't believe in pushing my beliefs on others, either. But, that doesn't mean that I don't care enough about other people (even those that I don't know) to want them to enjoy eternal life, either. It's everyone's choice and I respect our differences. I have friends that are not Christians and even though I pray for them, I'm certainly not going to judge them or force anything on them. That's not my place.
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Originally Posted by Mooseketeer
Prove it. Oh I forgot two thousand years of Christianity and nobody has come up with proof yet . One cannot expect one's belief to be taken seriously when there is no proof of any kind. If there was a murder I would like a little more than airy sentiments and proclamations of truth to prove that person guilty or innocent.
Well, I am far from a biblical scholar and I'm sure there are MANY on these boards who have personally done more research than I have. However, I feel that if Jesus had not risen, he would have just been forgotten about and the world would have moved on. He was mocked on the cross and challenged to save himself. He didn't. The world assumed he was NOT the son of God. But, when he rose 3 days later, it changed everything. That's when the Christian church exploded and while I can't prove that, it's certainly doesn't make sense that it would have happened if he would have just died with everyone believing he was no one. Of course, this is just what I believe and I have no proof of it, so your mileage may vary.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
So you think that because some atheists become Christians, it is proof that Jesus exists do you? If so, do you give the same considerations to Christians that become atheists, or Christians that become Muslims or Hindus. Surely, if an atheist becoming a Christian proves Jesus then a Christian becoming a Zoroastrian proves Zoroaster does it not....or is the 'evidence' somehow different in those cases?
Certainly a valid point. And no, I don't believe that's proof that Jesus existed. I'm sure I could do a ton of research and find people who have gone both ways and of course, as a Christian, I'm certainly going to be exposed to the people whose beliefs are the same as mine, I'll give you that.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
I'd wager that many of us atheists here know more about Christianity than you do
I'm sure that's entirely possible. As I said, I'm far from a biblical scholar.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Perhaps you could produce some of these "historical documents' that we appear to have missed. BTW, please save yourself and us some time and effort by leaving out Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny, Africanus, Ignatius, Thallus, Phlegon, Valentinus, Polycarp, Lucian, Galen and Mara Bar Serapian. They have been debunked so many times that it has become a standing joke.
We'll wait with baited breath for your "historical evidence" of your Jesus my good man/woman.
It's woman.
Obviously I have no historical evidence, personally. However, I do believe there are historical documents that back up his existence; secular ones at that. I am not versed enough to quote exactly what they are, but I will do a little research and see if I can find any of the things I am thinking of that I have heard of in the past. I apologize that I do not know off the top of my head.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fullback32
If I am wrong, then this is my problem and between Creator and myself, so why do you care?
I agree with "Why wouldn't I care?" My life used to be me-first, as I have always been very spoiled and selfish. I'm not completely past it all yet, but I'm working on it.
One of the things I've found is that I DO care now. I think it's very sad that there are so many people who may possibly miss out on the best gift our creator could offer us. I could be wrong, too, obviously, but since I don't think I am (do any of us? ), I would like to bring as many with me as possible.
I'm sure most people here have seen the old Penn Gillette (sp?) video where he's talking about someone giving him a bible and his response to that was surprisingly positive. As a very outspoken atheist, I believe he understands and respects those of us who are willing to share our faith because we would rather push others out of the way before the truck hits.
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Originally Posted by sanspeur
How can this be misunderstood? It is just not true. Christianity of all denominations has decreased by 0.7% between 2001 and 2008.
Well, I didn't check the link either right now, because I'm on my lunch break and don't have a lot of time. I will check it this evening though.
But the point is, the true "Christian" church (NO denomination, simply teaching the bible) is what is growing. The denominations, which are full of man's rules and other things that contribute to separating us from God, are what are decreasing. And I think they should. I grew up Lutheran and walked away as soon as I could.
I agree with "Why wouldn't I care?" My life used to be me-first, as I have always been very spoiled and selfish. I'm not completely past it all yet, but I'm working on it.
One of the things I've found is that I DO care now. I think it's very sad that there are so many people who may possibly miss out on the best gift our creator could offer us. I could be wrong, too, obviously, but since I don't think I am (do any of us? ), I would like to bring as many with me as possible.
I'm sure most people here have seen the old Penn Gillette (sp?) video where he's talking about someone giving him a bible and his response to that was surprisingly positive. As a very outspoken atheist, I believe he understands and respects those of us who are willing to share our faith because we would rather push others out of the way before the truck hits.
In my culture, we believe that matters between the Creator and people are individual in nature. It is between the Creator and individual only. Since we also do not believe in any hell, I do not see why it would be anyone else's concern. This is why I ask the question as I do.
Obviously I have no historical evidence, personally. However, I do believe there are historical documents that back up his existence; secular ones at that. I am not versed enough to quote exactly what they are, but I will do a little research and see if I can find any of the things I am thinking of that I have heard of in the past. I apologize that I do not know off the top of my head.
Ah I see! So the lady that tells others "But if you REALLY study this, I mean really, you would see evidential facts backup up the bible"....hasn't really practised what she is preaching eh?
In my culture, we believe that matters between the Creator and people are individual in nature. It is between the Creator and individual only. Since we also do not believe in any hell, I do not see why it would be anyone else's concern. This is why I ask the question as I do.
Becuase us Christians are told by our creator Jesus Christ that we must go into all nations preaching the gospel (good news of Jesus), making disciples and baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You can believe what you believe, but our beliefs are not yours! We believe we must spread the gospel.
Everyone who has beliefs, one way or another, always seems to be so very confident that what they believe is true. But that begs the question, (since we're all flawed humans who make mistakes daily):
What if you're wrong?
For me, as Christ Follower, if I'm wrong, I simply take a dirt nap when I die and that's that. In the days when I was a card carrying agnostic, I would have missed out on far more...
So, what happens if you're wrong?
Disclaimer: this isn't intended to start a flame war or illicit angry responses. if reading anything in this thread entices you to post in anger or with the intent to flame anyone, please walk away and find a more constructive outlet for your energy. Thanks!
Human's make mistakes, that is why Christians rely upon the word of God (the Bible) as the source of their faith. For God is perfect and his word will never be broken. We do not rely upon falible man.
Becuase us Christians are told by our creator Jesus Christ that we must go into all nations preaching the gospel (good news of Jesus), making disciples and baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You can believe what you believe, but our beliefs are not yours! We believe we must spread the gospel.
And that is why so many detest Christianity...It spreads like a virus destroying cultures wherever it goes....Not something I'd even admit, let alone be proud of.
Ah I see! So the lady ...hasn't really practised what she is preaching eh?
But I have. And I've yet to find anything that proves the bible untrue. Sure there are theories, circumstantial evidence, etc, but there's also plenty of that for it.
In the end, we'll all believe what we want, as belief hinges greatly on our point of view and personal experience. But, if you believed you could save lives, what sort of person would you be if you didn't even try?
But I have. And I've yet to find anything that proves the bible untrue.
It was addressed to intmd8r actually but no matter. intmd8r said that we should really research if we want evidence but when asked to produce the "historical" evidence she claims exists, she admitted she didn't have any....because she hadn't researched it.
It was addressed to intmd8r actually but no matter. intmd8r said that we should really research if we want evidence but when asked to produce the "historical" evidence she claims exists, she admitted she didn't have any....because she hadn't researched it.
That seems like arguing for the sake of arguing. Which is fine if that's what you want to do.
Do you have an answer for my question posed to you?
"If you believed you could save lives, what sort of person would you be if you didn't even try?"
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One cannot expect one's belief to be taken seriously when there is no proof of any kind. If there was a murder I would like a little more than airy sentiments and proclamations of truth to prove that person guilty or innocent.
