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Old 06-07-2007, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis, IN
198 posts, read 850,924 times
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If God is ever so all powerful and he is ALL-THAT-IS...why would he create all that is not? I am a spiritualist. Believe in the deity of Christ, of us (for those that are enlightened enough to know that we are not just our physical bodies) and I do not believe in Satan or hell. They do not exist in my world. Apocalyptic literature is what Revelation is to me just as there are romance novels on the shelf at the bookstore. It was common at the time.
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Old 06-07-2007, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
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Teach07 wrote:
Quote:
Believe in the deity of Christ, of us (for those that are enlightened enough to know that we are not just our physical bodies) and I do not believe in Satan or hell. They do not exist in my world.
That's an interesting point of view. If sounds like you do accept some of the basic beliefs of Christianity but not all of them. Do you believe in the Bible in the sense that it is supposed to be God's word? There's an awful lot in there about satan, hell and all of that business so I'm wondering how you came to believe that Christ is the son of God but reject the rest of it.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Rural Central Texas
3,605 posts, read 9,280,805 times
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Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
Thanks for your responses but I do find all of this to be very far fetched. Then did God create all of these angels in the first place like he did humans or where did they come from? And that brings up another question, did all of this business with the fallen angels occur before God created man? I would think that in order to have a devil to tempt Adam and Eve that all of this would have already occurred.
Do any of you who are believers have a hard time accepting a story like this when you really sit down and think about it? For myself, it's completely outside of the realm of reality and I couldn't imagine just accepting it at face value. This is clearly mythology like the stories of Zeus.
Faith is a difficult concept, but look at it this way. I accept scientific fact on faith in a manner of speaking because much of scientific doctrine and foundation is inexplicable to me. I will accept that covalent bonds operate in a certain manner because a "scientist" told me they do and has convinced me that other reations I can see are a result of these processes. If you put the same requirements of proof of this as you do for religious faith, I would have to reject most scientific fact as mythology because I have never seen it first hand, and what I have seen I do have not seen or do not fully comprehend the root causal relationships that permit the fact to exist.

You are rejecting this concept of demonic origin simply because you do not accept the concept of a biblical god. Since you do not accept the foundations, you refuse to accept the fruit of that foundation. It is a logical approach. BUT, if you reject the concept of atomic bonding because you have not seen it and don't understand it rules, then you must reject that concrete exists and therefore most of the physical man-made world around us. It is a bit more difficult to explain why this imaginary building keeps bruising your forehead as you try to walk through it. Right? Perhaps you can just rationalize it as some other process that achieves the same result. Perhaps calling it by some other name will make it easier to accept.

I see religious faith much the same way. There is a doctrine of explanation delivered to us that we must accept despite not understanding it's rules or foundations. We have to accept on faith that it works. If we accept that foundation as truth, then other things will make sense in that construct.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Maine
16,485 posts, read 20,763,941 times
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Originally Posted by johnrex62 View Post
Faith is a difficult concept, but look at it this way. I accept scientific fact on faith in a manner of speaking because much of scientific doctrine and foundation is inexplicable to me. I will accept that covalent bonds operate in a certain manner because a "scientist" told me they do and has convinced me that other reations I can see are a result of these processes. If you put the same requirements of proof of this as you do for religious faith, I would have to reject most scientific fact as mythology because I have never seen it first hand, and what I have seen I do have not seen or do not fully comprehend the root causal relationships that permit the fact to exist.

I see religious faith much the same way. There is a doctrine of explanation delivered to us that we must accept despite not understanding it's rules or foundations. We have to accept on faith that it works. If we accept that foundation as truth, then other things will make sense in that construct.
Right on.

Read Descartes. The only person devoid of faith is the insane man. No matter how rational and skeptical you are, their comes a point in reasoning where you just have to take the leap of faith.
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,916 posts, read 16,794,408 times
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Mark S wrote:
Quote:
their comes a point in reasoning where you just have to take the leap of faith.
Thanks for your thoughts Mark S and johnrex62 but I really don't see it that way. I believe that rational thought and the scientific method is our only way of really understanding our universe. I know this is a subject that we've knocked around on numerous threads and I think it reveals the basic difference between a religious approach and a rational approach to life. Whenever you have faith in something you're accepting it as fact and using that as a starting point to build on. The problem I have with this method is that religious faith is built upon something that simply is not true and therefore everything that's built upon that starting point is going to be faulty as well. This is the part where I can't convince you and you can't convince me even though we're both trying very hard to do so.
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Old 06-07-2007, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis, IN
198 posts, read 850,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
Teach07 wrote:

That's an interesting point of view. If sounds like you do accept some of the basic beliefs of Christianity but not all of them. Do you believe in the Bible in the sense that it is supposed to be God's word? There's an awful lot in there about satan, hell and all of that business so I'm wondering how you came to believe that Christ is the son of God but reject the rest of it.

Yes, I do accept Christ but he means much different to me than what Christianity has made him to be. I believe the Bible is a written work and that some of it is inspired by God, just as much as Neale Donald Walsch was inspired to write Conversations with God, the Torah, the Qu'Ran, etc. I guess many will hold on to God only spoke directly to us back then and not now. My issue is I believe many books in the Bible were strategically placed together to construct a mold for the basis of the early church. When differences occured, denominations spurned off here and there. I look at certain books in the bible as literature of the time. It was a question boggling man even then, who are we? where did we come from? Apocalyptic literature was very popular at that time as well and several people claim to be 'authority' or 'directly inspired by God'. If you read the Nag Hammadi libraries, many of the books chosen to be left out of the Bible were done so due to power, position and things that did not want to be conveyed in the central belief they were trying to create. Look into many books that people of the time tried to pass off of 'gnostic' or 'apostate'- there is usually a secret being hidden. These (Nag Hammadi) were found in the dead sea scrolls findings not long ago. Many of those lost books also contained in Greek 'Inspired by God' or 'Direct by God' and they depict a very different Jesus- one we equate to being more of a mystic. One who wanted us to attain self knowledge, recognize your God inspired nature and your spirit nature. He never wanted to be glorified in doctrine, he wanted to show love, set and example and take us to our highest being. But the words we often see in the Bible dont depict that part of Jesus. Heaven forbid people know their greatness...said the church leader (they may as well have).
So to close, I rely on the Bible as a source of wisdom and understanding when it comes to the way a person should be or treat one another, just like I would read the words and sayings of Buddha, Jesus or any other teacher. No I dont think is the infalliable word of God. The fruits of the spirit are universal throughout beliefs and can help you be the best person, conditioning and training your mind for greatness and can be found in many paths. I do not believe in Satan, nor do I believe in hell. Never have, never will- even when I was a "Christian" (as there are various christian groups that do not believe in a literal hell). As I've stated before, we are too great not to have something greater than us create us. The thing is we dont realize our greatness. Condemnation, failure, superiority, insufficient, requirement- in terms of religion we have made all of this up. Imagine the freedom of the closest spiritual relationship you can have with your creator, and to know he has passed this ability on to you. Constantly we are creating, each moment. We are science and spirit. Science is the name we've given it. We can only understand things relative to what we know. There are known knowns and unknown knowns out there. And no I dont follow Scientology and really dont know much about it. I study, pray, follow wisdom found in many teachings and paths, meditate for the spirit and do not fall in the trappings of religion. If somene wants to be a religious person and follow doctrines, rules, regulations, etc then that is fine. They arent killing anyone for their beliefs, but I will not follow relgions such as Christianity that teaches seperation from God (he never left us), superiority, conditional love (if we dont get back in his graces, then he will hand us over to the devil)...the list goes on. We dont know ourselves this is why the world is the way it is. We dont know ourselves until we die, and only then it is not an ending.
Like a fellow teacher of mine who's uncle works at NASA in Texas has often told us 'There are things out there that I can not talk about but will tell you we dont KNOW what the hell they are and do not want to find out'...some things can not be explained, but you can not deny the trinity of self.
Sorry to be long winded, but I hope I answered your questions.
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Old 06-07-2007, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Maine
16,485 posts, read 20,763,941 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
I really don't see it that way. I believe that rational thought and the scientific method is our only way of really understanding our universe.
But can you ever really know beyond a shadow of any doubt that the evidence before you reliable? Can you ever know that you have all the evidence? Can your senses ever deceive you? Can our minds? Are our minds absolutely without fault and reliable all the time?

No. Honestly, no. We're imperfect creatures who have only begun to scratch the surface of our universe. There comes a point in even the strictest rationalist's reasoning where he has to take that leap of faith, even even if it is only in trusting his reason.

This is the origin of Descartes's cogito ergo sum. That was the basis of his entire philosophy, and even he had to admit that was a leap of faith.
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Old 08-16-2007, 12:39 AM
 
1 posts, read 1,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
It's said that satan was an angel at some point in the past until he had some serious behavioral issues and God had to throw him out. Now it seems that satan has a larger force of evil entities than just himself and that would include demons and possibly other forces of evil. I've never heard of angels having any subordinates or lesser beings who report directly to them so I'm wondering where satan got his helpers. It almost seems like satan is considered to be an equal of God in the sense that one represents good and the other represents evil. So a common angel gets kicked out of heaven but then goes on to become satan. It appears like he's getting a sort of promotion because now he's the top ranking entity who's opposing God and he even has an army of demonic forces to back him up. Can anyone explain this to me?
I found a helpful web page today. I hope you read the Word and search these things out for yourself. It makes a lot of sense. I had never heard it explained this way before. Hope it helps. And yes, God created ALL things good and evil. The Word says so.
L. Ray Smith - The Lake of Fire - Part 9
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Old 08-16-2007, 01:21 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 7,715,726 times
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This discussion of angels and demons is so retrograde, taking place here in the 21st century. These are ideas that were invented more than 2,000 years ago, when mankind didn't understand all that much about himself, much less rest of the natural universe. (However, check out what the Greek astronomer Hipparchus knew as of about 150 B.C. after studying the sky for himself and using Mesopotamian astronomical observations. Hipparchus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia His knowledge was captured partially by the astronomer Ptolemy of Alexandria, but other parts of his knowledge were lost for 1,500 years! The march of human knowledge sometimes goes BACKWARDS, don't forget it!)

What is really amazing, and sad, is that all you Bible believers are actually making a leap of faith (based on absolutely no reproducible evidence) that is far beyond what is done in developing and acknowledging the validity (contingent and based on present knowledge, as it is) of many scientific theories, including evolution.

If you can believe what the Bible states as "truth," with much less straining of your credulity you can definitely believe the truths of science, one of which is the theory (that is, an explanation that makes testable predictions about the relationships among a set of observable, reproducible facts and physical laws) of evolution.
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Old 08-16-2007, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Just a few miles outside of St. Louis
1,921 posts, read 5,167,615 times
Reputation: 1190
I find it highly amusing that both sides, atheist and theist alike, (particularly Christians), each think that the other side is irrational, (or perhaps even insane!).
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