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Old 06-05-2007, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,795,749 times
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This topic may be too hot, but we'll see.

I've often thought that everything occurs in degrees, including religious beliefs. Obviously, Islamic Jihadists, or Muslim extremists who have begun a Jihad, truly believe that they are doing the right thing and that it is supported by the Mullah's and religious leaders they follow and the Qu'ran. That what they are doing, by wreaking havoc and killing non-believing "infidels", will take them to Allah's Paradise and protect Islam. They can back up every action they take, including blowing up innocent women and children, with verses of the Qu'ran. You won't find a verse that says to actually do it though, and I am not faulting the Muslims or the Qu'ran AT ALL. At its core, I believe it's a peaceful religion, as is Christianity.

However, could Christians following the bible "literally" also fall into this trap? Because essentially the bible says that all non-believers will not enter the kingdom of heaven. And if Christians feel they and their way of life are "under attack" as some claim even today, could they then justify taking violent action against other non-believers as reasonable? Christians did perpetrate the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, so the human capability is always there.

Just curious if I'm the only one who has this concern.

 
Old 06-05-2007, 01:17 PM
 
Location: NJ
279 posts, read 1,345,982 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
This topic may be too hot, but we'll see.

I've often thought that everything occurs in degrees, including religious beliefs. Obviously, Islamic Jihadists, or Muslim extremists who have begun a Jihad, truly believe that they are doing the right thing and that it is supported by the Mullah's and religious leaders they follow and the Qu'ran. That what they are doing, by wreaking havoc and killing non-believing "infidels", will take them to Allah's Paradise and protect Islam. They can back up every action they take, including blowing up innocent women and children, with verses of the Qu'ran. You won't find a verse that says to actually do it though, and I am not faulting the Muslims or the Qu'ran AT ALL. At its core, I believe it's a peaceful religion, as is Christianity.

However, could Christians following the bible "literally" also fall into this trap? Because essentially the bible says that all non-believers will not enter the kingdom of heaven. And if Christians feel they and their way of life are "under attack" as some claim even today, could they then justify taking violent action against other non-believers as reasonable? Christians did perpetrate the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, so the human capability is always there.

Just curious if I'm the only one who has this concern.
I think when anyone is an extremist when it comes to their religion, regardless of which religion it is, it is extremely dangerous. When people interpret religious literature differently from its original meaning and use violence as means to carry out their beliefs, then it is scary. Islam is not the only religion that does it...

I agree with you that it is a concern and it does not only pertain to Muslims.
 
Old 06-05-2007, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Rural Central Texas
3,672 posts, read 10,578,780 times
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Anything can be misinterpreted to any degree. I am not aware of any extremist christian sect that has ever interpreted the bible passages regarding spreading the word to mean extermination non-believers. I think that has little chance of happening anymore in this age of information.

Christians in the middle ages did not have access to the bible or any other theological material and relied strictly upon the church's oralization of the word. In those days there were more non-believer's in positions of religous power than there were christians due to the structure of the church and how the clergy was supplied with candiates. (One major source of clergy was surplus sons of nobility when the inheritance was exhausted and they had no career to pursue)

Much of the christian persecutions of history were more political and monetary based than they were religious. It was easy to motivate followers with a religious argument since they could not dispute any "fact" the priest dissembled to them.
 
Old 06-05-2007, 01:25 PM
 
1,016 posts, read 3,030,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
However, could Christians following the bible "literally" also fall into this trap? Because essentially the bible says that all non-believers will not enter the kingdom of heaven. And if Christians feel they and their way of life are "under attack" as some claim even today, could they then justify taking violent action against other non-believers as reasonable? Christians did perpetrate the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, so the human capability is always there.

Just curious if I'm the only one who has this concern.
Well, there's always the question of "which literal is literal?" Regardless of denomination, one of the key points of studying the bible is determining what is literal, what is a metaphor, what was written for a particular situation, etc. For example, my in-laws were members of a sect that claimed to follow the Bible to the letter, but at the same time believed that the bread and wine at communion is symbolic (which can be argued as applying your own reason to the text rather than taking it directly literally). So, I think the issue isn't even necessarly how they view Scripture, but what they derive from Scripture. Look at the diversity in Christianity that has arisen in the last 200 years, and I don't think any of the originators of any of these various different movements believe that they are incorrect in their reading of the Bible.

The thing that I find a lot more disconcerting is people's tendency to follow leaders, and leaders' tendency to use whatever is convenient to control their followers. It's bad enough when Jim Bakker bilks his supporters for millions, but that's nothing compared to Jim Jones.
 
Old 06-05-2007, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Just a few miles outside of St. Louis
1,921 posts, read 5,611,873 times
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I certainly think it is possible that some Christian groups would resort to violence if they thought it was justified. History bears this out. And, let's face it, most fanatics can always find a way to justify their actions, (i.e. "it's the will of God", etc.). I've read of some, along the lines of Dominionists, Christian Reconstructionists, and such, who would like to bring back the Old Testament laws, with which to run our society. I don't know how serious they really are, but all the same, it bears consideration.
 
Old 06-05-2007, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,795,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisW View Post
Well, there's always the question of "which literal is literal?" Regardless of denomination, one of the key points of studying the bible is determining what is literal, what is a metaphor, what was written for a particular situation, etc. For example, my in-laws were members of a sect that claimed to follow the Bible to the letter, but at the same time believed that the bread and wine at communion is symbolic (which can be argued as applying your own reason to the text rather than taking it directly literally). So, I think the issue isn't even necessarly how they view Scripture, but what they derive from Scripture. Look at the diversity in Christianity that has arisen in the last 200 years, and I don't think any of the originators of any of these various different movements believe that they are incorrect in their reading of the Bible.

The thing that I find a lot more disconcerting is people's tendency to follow leaders, and leaders' tendency to use whatever is convenient to control their followers. It's bad enough when Jim Bakker bilks his supporters for millions, but that's nothing compared to Jim Jones.
Agreed. In one of my college studies, we discussed at length "group-think", and how the biggest driver that brings a group together is a "common enemy". No other single strategy draws more loyalty and performance out of a group. It's a direct reaction to the fear that sets in to the synapsis, the competitive nature of man (and woman), and the yearning to belong or seek social approval. Take a large corporation, build up your competitors as Marauders at the Gate, and watch the morale and teamwork of your workers grow like wildfire. The same can be accomplished on a smaller scale through a budding religious sect (or branch of a larger denomination), sometimes calling themselves "traditionalists", which generally means they believe they follow the Bible more literally than their modern counterparts.

I actually believe with the explosion of the internet and different media, the ability to trigger "group-think" is growing exponentially every day. Not saying they are bad per se, but look at the impromptu meetups and the popularity of sites like myspace and youtube. Now imagine a powerful articulate charismatic speaker (or typist) who gets control of an internet media portal like these, sets up a "straw man" common enemy, and gives a compelling argument why non-believers are out to get you. Yikes!

Last edited by magellan; 06-05-2007 at 01:48 PM..
 
Old 06-05-2007, 01:35 PM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
3,434 posts, read 9,727,511 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Agreed. In one of my college studies, we discussed at length "group-think", and how the biggest driver that brings a group together is a "common enemy". No other single strategy draws more loyalty and performance out of a group. It's a direct reaction to the fear that sets in to the synapsis, the competitive nature of man (and woman), and the yearning to belong or seek social approval. Take a large corporation, build up your competitors as Marauders at the Gate, and watch the morale and teamwork of your workers grow like wildfire.

I actually believe with the explosion of the internet and different media, the ability to trigger "group-think" is growing exponentially every day. Not saying they are bad per se, but look at the impromptu meetups and the popularity of sites like myspace and youtube. Now imagine a powerful articulate charismatic speaker (or typist) who gets control of an internet media portal like these, sets up a "straw man" common enemy, and gives a compelling argument why non-believers are out to get you. Yikes!
glad the halle-bop comet is coming around again for a while-lol
 
Old 06-05-2007, 01:36 PM
 
Location: In the Redwoods
30,286 posts, read 51,800,126 times
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You said it yourself, Magellan, that history answers this question... incidents such as the Spanish Inquisition, exile & murder of Russian Jews, and of course the Holocaust (Hitler did claim to be a Christian, at least during part of his life), are just a few examples of extremist Christianity gone wrong. I just finished the book "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris, which discusses this very issue, and brings up some excellent points. I suggest you all read this book, if you can handle some logical & brutally honest discourse on religion.
 
Old 06-05-2007, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,672 posts, read 22,230,159 times
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Is this really a concern here or just another form of Christian-bashing?
 
Old 06-05-2007, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,795,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
Is this really a concern here or just another form of Christian-bashing?

If it helps any, I am a Catholic and a Christian, and I believe that everyone should reflect on the dangers of human nature, even in the name of God or any other higher being, from time to time. Is there any harm in that? I believe it helps a soul mature.
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